wages

albion:
You’d hate us Winseer, there is no regular work. We deal with high tech stuff and see it from drawing board to production via testing, which means no schedule at all. About 40% of our work doesn’t come in till the afternoon before. You might find a week of getting no further than 150 mile radius and home every night; the next week, out in a van, couple of nights in a hotel somewhere abroad waiting to do a swap over with another crew .

We always explain the varied nature of the work before people start and we always start with, ‘Are you alright for…’. Around 80% of the staff stay, so I’m guessing they are happy with it, bad as it sounds written down.

If I didn’t have other plans…variety is the spice of life as far as I’m concerned and there’s no shortage of books to read or places to see if having a layover somewhere! :slight_smile:

Winseer:
Lots of utter drivel snipped

You don’t know do you, just how ridiculous your very long . . . very boring & very, very very wrong diatribes are to a thinking person.

===================================
So this post isn’t taken out of context I’ll point out that I’ve just deleted a post full of Islamophobia by Winseer.

tachograph.

albion:
Very much ■■■ packet calculations

Take Downtons, 5.7 million pre tax profit on 111.6 million turnover, which as a percentage of turnover is about on a par with the wincantons and gregorys of this world. Tax will take 20% of that, so profit down to £4,560,000.

They have 700 trucks, so for ease say they have a thousand drivers, extra will cover holiday and training time and double shifting the truck.

Extra 1.00 on basic 40 hours for those 1000 drivers comes to £2,080000.
Extra 1.50 on 15 hours overtime comes to £1,170,000
Employers contributions, call it 10% for ease (it’s more actually) £325,000
All together that comes to £3,575,000.

That leaves around a million profit, which barely makes a business of that size viable.

Now I’ve had a few wines :stuck_out_tongue: , so I’m possibly out a bit, but it’s broadly right. My point is that what looks like a small raise on the hourly rate, would have Downtons begging for an increase in their pence per mile.

As a small haulier, I employ 23 people. I live in a 160 k house and drive a three year old Vauxhall Combo.

Living the dream! :wink:

yeah I see your point,not a lot of profit for running a big company

Winseer:

albion:
You’d hate us Winseer, there is no regular work. We deal with high tech stuff and see it from drawing board to production via testing, which means no schedule at all. About 40% of our work doesn’t come in till the afternoon before. You might find a week of getting no further than 150 mile radius and home every night; the next week, out in a van, couple of nights in a hotel somewhere abroad waiting to do a swap over with another crew .

We always explain the varied nature of the work before people start and we always start with, ‘Are you alright for…’. Around 80% of the staff stay, so I’m guessing they are happy with it, bad as it sounds written down.

Ouch! - You’re right. I’m not a guy for standing still, or drinking endless cups of tea/coffee, me. :open_mouth:

Some weeks there’s not a lot of sitting around, it balances out. Worst bit for me would be the long ferry crossings, Gothenburg, Esbjerg take 24 hours.

Dork Lard:
So it’s hard for anyone to claim it takes a certain skill or talent to drive a lorry. Anyone can become a lorry driver.

Just because anyone can do a particular task, does not mean that those actually doing a particular task should go underpaid (or even unpaid, at the logical conclusion).

Almost anyone can wash my car, for example - including myself. It doesn’t mean car-washers should be press-ganged into forced labour and paid nothing, because “anybody can wash cars” (so say those who are not actually washing their own cars, but are expecting someone else to do it for a pittance). If you want your car washed by somebody else, you pay that man a wage to live.

Nor does it mean that highly specialist roles should be overpaid (or even consume the entirety of the proceeds of a collective endeavour). There is a difference between making an extra payment to recognise the particular stress, risk, or unpleasantness of a particular role, and gratuitous overpayment based on something else entirely (like exploitation or extortion).

If CEOs needed to be paid so much more than the lowest paid worker, then how on earth were CEOs ever motivated to work in the past, and how do other countries (which are either poorer, or simply more economically equal) motivate their senior managers to work on much less?

The transport industries wages are defined by the laws of economics, namely the law of ‘supply & demand’.

The difference is that a “law of economics” is not remotely the same as the laws of physics (to which the phrase is designed to allude) - it is closer to “the law of the land”, and the law of the land in a democracy is entirely for the people to dictate.

That is, the laws of economics can be politically adjusted like any other law. Increased union powers, for example, can put workers in a better position to bargain for their wages, by withdrawing the supply of labour entirely (and therefore decreasing supply) until an acceptable wage is offered.

Tariffs, capital controls, and similar, can be deployed to prevent foreign countries undercutting domestic economic laws - that is why the EU, for example, is not willing to let the Tory government abolish workers’ paid holiday after Brexit in order to try and undercut other European workers (who would then lose their paid holiday in turn, if they are forced to “compete” with British workers to the bottom).

Other political actions can also reduce the demand (and wages) at the top end, for CEOs for example, by encouraging industrial consolidation (which both reduces the overall number of CEOs required in the economy, and reduces the number of separate organisations bidding up wages to compete for their supposedly rare talents). If there is such a shortage of such talent, why doesn’t the government abolish competition, in order to attenuate demand and therefore undermine the wages of the highest paid?

The only difference between the 1960s and today is that the “laws of economics” back then included high tax rates, stiff regulation, strong trade union powers, and so on. And bosses weren’t allowed to play around with complex corporate structures and offshore tax havens as easy as shuffling a pack of cards.

The “free market” is never a truly free market in which the bosses face the same personal consequences as workers for refusing to participate in the economy. The worker faces almost immediate hunger, whereas the boss could live out his life on what he already has stored for himself - and for that reason, the boss never has to let up on eating caviar before the workers are starved back to work. The free market is an ideal of capitalist economic theory, a fantasy of right-wing intellectuals, which never really exists in practice.

What does exist in practice is a market that is rigged to a greater or lesser degree in favour of the bosses. Bosses have large personal wealth as their form of social security. Bosses have private property rights over the workplaces and machinery that workers build and operate, and it is these rights that allow them to quickly cut workers off from food and shelter, without workers having a corresponding right to quickly cut bosses off from food and shelter. So whenever workers and bosses can’t agree on wages, the bosses just sit back and let starvation set in until workers accept less.

It fails me why workers have come to see this arrangement as some sort of natural law, rather than a man-made law, and their own exploitation in these rigged and unequal circumstances as simply the operation of a “supply and demand” mechanism.

It’s only when workers threaten to expropriate workplaces, to expropriate property and other capital, that the two classes really meet on equal terms in the marketplace - and when they meet on equal terms, and when the mechanism of supply and demand then operates, the bosses end up with no more wealth and reward than the average worker, because their wealth and reward was never based on working a billion times harder or smarter than a worker or contributing a billion times more of anything, it was based on their privilege within an exploitative arrangement of economic laws, and the workers’ disadvantage within the same arrangement.

End of sermon. :laughing:

Dork Lard:

Winseer:
Lots of utter drivel snipped

You don’t know do you, just how ridiculous your very long . . . very boring & very, very very wrong diatribes are to a thinking person.

===================================
So this post isn’t taken out of context I’ll point out that I’ve just deleted a post full of Islamophobia by Winseer.

tachograph.

Yeh that’s odd that.

We cannot name and shame bent agencies.
We cannot name and shame those who’ve actually stolen wages from us.
We cannot call a spade a spade, and declare objection to something that even as a “Phobia” - one should have a perfect right to speak of.

Political Correctness will be the death of this country. I don’t give a ■■■■ what a 12-poster newbie thinks, but I’m dismayed that a Mod thinks it necessary to deny me free speech in the name of political correctness.

You can be dismayed as much as you like but this still isn’t the place for your religious ramblings, and that’s why I’ve also deleted 2 paragraphs of this post.

tachograph

“Islamaphobia” is not a crime nor a medical condition just as “Islam” is not a race or really a Religion.
I wonder what would happen if we tried to ban “Atheistphobia” or “Christianphobia”?

“Politics, Religion, Money”

Scratch the first two - let’s get back on topic properly and talk about the wages money then.

How about some posts from people in different firms telling us all what the pay and conditions are?
Why does it have to be a big bloody secret, when above all other things - “Pay and conditions” are EXACTLY what we want to find out and know before applying for a job pretty much anywhere…

Winseer:
“Islamaphobia” is not a crime nor a medical condition just as “Islam” is not a race or really a Religion.

It has nothing to do with political correctness, Islamophobia may not be a crime but it is off topic for this thread :unamused:

Winseer:
I wonder what would happen if we tried to ban “Atheistphobia” or “Christianphobia”?

If you tried to do it in a thread about wages it would meet the same fate as your previous post :unamused:

It’s not unusual for threads to go off topic on this board, but using a thread about wages to rant about Islam is not only off topic it’s bloody mind boggling :unamused:

Ok. Let’s see those posts declaring what T&Cs WAGES are now then. That’s the topic. Let’s talk about that 100% now.

C’mon - don’t be shy everyone! I’m giving everyone a chance to tell me something for a change. I’d really like to know what each and every major haulage firm in this country are paying and dishing out in perks right now.

Think of all that wasted time won back for us hapless job applicants - if we could know before we start “if a job is not worth applying to” or not.

That knowledge being common knowledge would surely push up wages.? Who would work for Bloggs Carriers for £9.50ph when that turns out to be the lowest pay in the region? Who would NOT apply for that top dollar job - If we only knew where it was at?

There will always be takers for poorly paid drivers jobs, doesn’t matter who pays what. The problem comes when hauliers see the poor paid work gets done and that they are paying more out in wages for their drivers. It doesn’t necessarily mean the poor drivers jobs are being filled by bad drivers either. Whilst people accept poor rates and drive for these chancers, nothing will change other than it will eventually have an adverse affect on the rest of the industry. Agencies will always exist, love them or hate them, drivers rates will either stay low or become low whilst we accept them.

I suggest that a lot of people end up on poor rates - because they don’t know any better in the locale. This would include myself. I’m sure there are better hourly rates than BASE £13ph about these days.

(To convert a salary into an hourly rate, calculate your “at work hours” by the time you turn up for work to the time you get in your car to go home)

If you’re paid £26k for a 40 hour week for example, that would be £12.50ph
£26k pa = £500pw = £12.50ph for a 40 hour week all-in)
F you arrived and went home exactly to time every day. Note that breaks are included in this calculation. You are “at work” when on break, so your not really “Off Duty” in that you can go home (well, not unless you live opposite the yard at least!)

Overtime doesn’t count here, because it’s not available everywhere, and doesn’t always pay time-and-a-half when it is available.

The best of all possible worlds of course would be not so much the higher headline salary, but rather
something along the lines of £30k for a 40 hour week is better than £32k for a 50 hour week. In real terms, doing 20% more hours should up your salary by that same 20% to make the two jobs “like for like”. That would make £36k a fair wage for a 48 hour week in this example.

…so it’s worth using the “calculated hourly rate” as I’ve shown here to render all different paid styles of jobs with some common denominator.

I’m currently £32k for the 48 hour week, so I do believe there is room for improvement there. Unfortunately, it’s hard enough to get hourly rates out of agencies - let alone full time employers offering the jobs. :frowning:
I’d like to maintain or improve the net hourly rate - but most of all have plentiful paid overtime available whenever I want or need it. :stuck_out_tongue: Is that so much to ask?

I believe we should all be informed of what the hourly rate for a job is - before we even waste our breath getting on the blower to apply for that job. :wink:
If Employers won’t tell us - then it is up to us to act like insurance companies do - and talk to each other. Cross-inform. Educate to allow others to avoid the pitfalls of the shadier employers out there.

Anyone ever been in a shop that had empty shelves because they couldn’t get deliveries done ?
There’s plenty of drivers out there and as long as the employers in any kind of business don’t have to raise the wages to attract employees,why should they ?
Read somewhere that the amount of drivers in the UK will be reduced by 40% in the next 10-15 years because of retirements,then we might see a change,probably not before…

Neverstress:
Anyone ever been in a shop that had empty shelves because they couldn’t get deliveries done ?
There’s plenty of drivers out there and as long as the employers in any kind of business don’t have to raise the wages to attract employees,why should they ?
Read somewhere that the amount of drivers in the UK will be reduced by 40% in the next 10-15 years because of retirements,then we might see a change,probably not before…

Who know how many driverless truck will be after 10 years.Who is know how many people will buy in store???If company buy much more trailers and start use more drop and swap that can reduced number of drivers for 10-20 percent or more.

Andrejs:

Neverstress:

Who know how many driverless truck will be after 10 years.

None in Britain, but there will be another 5 million people living here, so congestion will rise massively as will the obvious demand to service those extra bodies, leading to more drivers needed than ever.

There are increasing signs on our roads that we may be seeing a situation where those same 5million of whom you speak - are servicing themselves - by taking up that low-paid driving slack in the economy.
Taxi drivers, Van drivers, and to a lesser extent - Truck drivers.

The standard of driving is slipping in any case. People doing U-turns in front of you, no warnings let alone signals.
Driving clearly unroadworthy vehicles due to bent MOTs.
Plod? - Can’t criticize the perps - because if they happen to be of the wrong irk let’s say - it’s a carpeting for “picking on those that cannot be picked on”.

…Unless you’re a working white British taxpayer of course. The proverbial “enforcement” is saved in it’s entire quota for us. :frowning:

We’re already in danger of losing our inner cities in this country as it is. Who, among us wants to drive into the “Big Smoke” these days?
It’s not as if driving in London pays much of a premium any more - is it?
The only time I get asked to do it - the whole job turns out to be a big fiddle, with only “van driver’s wages” actually on offer via the backdoor.

I predict a sharp increase in the incidence of “workplace safety” related accidents among the inner city driving population. Everything from falling off the back of a tail lift to running red lights with impunity “because no enforcement will take place”. This will apply to cyclists as well of course. Everyone has this sense of “entitlement” which cuts no ice when human flesh and bone comes into contact with metal vehicle and mineral road at high speed. :frowning:

albion:
Some weeks there’s not a lot of sitting around, it balances out. Worst bit for me would be the long ferry crossings, Gothenburg, Esbjerg take 24 hours.

which part of Salford are you? My eldest is looking for a new job, he’s not on any social media though and I can’t PM you for some reason. Are you looking for any drivers? :laughing: