Unions

Carryfast:

UKtramp:
Try to stop the agency workers entering or leaving and the police arrive and hand you a hefty fine.

You do know that the purpose of a picket line is about winning hearts and minds not confrontation and conflict.At that point the responsibility is on the ‘agency’ workers to make the choice between being a scab,thereby letting down the working class as a whole,or turning away and/or preferably voluntarily joining those on the picket line for a cup of tea and sandwiches.Bearing in mind that choosing the scab option will eventually come back to bite them in undermining their own terms and conditions. :bulb:

Didn’t stop the miners who lived in their own community, some were even their own relatives who could not afford to either stay or go on strike. The idea of not crossing a picket line is pure fantasy, nobody cares about the plight of others they do not even know.

UKtramp:

Carryfast:

UKtramp:
Try to stop the agency workers entering or leaving and the police arrive and hand you a hefty fine.

You do know that the purpose of a picket line is about winning hearts and minds not confrontation and conflict.At that point the responsibility is on the ‘agency’ workers to make the choice between being a scab,thereby letting down the working class as a whole,or turning away and/or preferably voluntarily joining those on the picket line for a cup of tea and sandwiches.Bearing in mind that choosing the scab option will eventually come back to bite them in undermining their own terms and conditions. :bulb:

Didn’t stop the miners who lived in their own community, some were even their own relatives who could not afford to either stay or go on strike. The idea of not crossing a picket line is pure fantasy, nobody cares about the plight of others they do not even know.

Wasn’t just miners and pit staff that were targeted though was it?
Carryfast, your post is utter garbage, pure fantasy. Picket lines are about hearts and minds…it takes quite a bit to offend me but your sixth form horse ■■■■ is pushing some buttons son.
Rob, me and you will probably never agree on unions as already seen but at least you and others such as Juddian make an interesting point on things, and I have to respect that.
I suspect that 26 miles of water has more to do with working conditions than any union. I also suspect that the unions, had they been of any strength would have failed to stop the current situation from happening as it would have ultimately been beyond any remit they would have.

Norfolkinclue1:
Carryfast, your post is utter garbage, pure fantasy. Picket lines are about hearts and minds…it takes quite a bit to offend me but your sixth form horse [zb] is pushing some buttons son.

:confused:

The point was that if picketing descends into conflict between scabs and pickets rather than sympathy and solidarity at the line,a strike has generally been lost at that point,along with the interests of the working class for all.Why would that fact offend anyone. :unamused:

As for the idea that the NUM was powerless in the 1984 strike.Yes only because they were let down by the TUC by it not calling a general strike and the working class in general backing it.Combined with the previous Labour government not getting us out of the EU and imposing protectionist trade policies.

The rest being history for the working class of this country.Had things been different in that regard we’d have been in a totally different timeline from that point on.

Carryfast:

Rjan:
If workers are so afraid, why are many of them aligning with right-wing loons in Ukip and similar?

Probably for the same reason that the so called ‘left’ are aligning themselves with the CBI and bankers by supporting the Blairites and Thatcerites in wanting to maintain the status quo of British jobs for German and East Euro workers and being governed by a locally unelected elitist rabble like Juncker and Merkel.

IE the issues of whether we’re better off as a subjugated province of the EUSSR super state transcend so called ‘left’ v so called ‘right’ and Farage is certainly a better choice in that regard than bleedin Blair and his banker class cronies.Just as Shore,Benn and Powell were all better choices than Heath,Callaghan,Jenkins and their later allies Blair and Thatcher.

There are literally howls of anguish from the CBI at the prospect of Corbyn. In fact the only belated and begrudging business support for Labour arises from the dawning recognition, amongst those able to grasp the dynamics of an economic system, that the capitalist system is in a crisis of its own making.

For those worried about being undercut by immigrants, the obvious solution is to regulate the market to uphold wages.

The right-wing Brexiteers policy is to strike free trade deals with other countries. There is already talk of freedom of movement with India. How that is seen to align with the interests of the average working class voter, who complains that they are being hammered by the free market in wages, I do not know.

It is like I say, there is a point at which fear stops being a credible explanation. Workers have always been frightened of bosses, because they have the power by default. But nobody is being sanctioned merely for political awareness - bosses aren’t checking ballots for which turkeys failed to vote for Christmas.

Rjan:
There are literally howls of anguish from the CBI at the prospect of Corbyn. In fact the only belated and begrudging business support for Labour arises from the dawning recognition, amongst those able to grasp the dynamics of an economic system, that the capitalist system is in a crisis of its own making.

For those worried about being undercut by immigrants, the obvious solution is to regulate the market to uphold wages.

The right-wing Brexiteers policy is to strike free trade deals with other countries. There is already talk of freedom of movement with India. How that is seen to align with the interests of the average working class voter, who complains that they are being hammered by the free market in wages, I do not know.

It is like I say, there is a point at which fear stops being a credible explanation. Workers have always been frightened of bosses, because they have the power by default. But nobody is being sanctioned merely for political awareness - bosses aren’t checking ballots for which turkeys failed to vote for Christmas.

The difference is that the Brexit side can provide the ‘choice’ of Bennites,Hefferites,Shoreites and even a bit of Powellite thinking in the mix.

Remind us what the EU remainers have to offer other than Callaghan,Thatcherite,Major,Blairite,Cameron and Juncker’s and Merkel’s thinking.On that note strange how the remainers seem to want to selectively use the example of the race to the bottom free trade agenda of just one faction of the Brexit side in the form of a few neo Con Tories.While conveniently ignoring and sidelining others on the ‘left’ like Hoey and John Boyd like Shore,Benn,and Heffer before them.

The agenda being clear in that it’s just one Stalinist pseudo Marxist faction of the so called ‘left’ that is predictably attracted by and sees an obvious advantage to its liking in the form of a centralised undemocratic Soviet controlled Europe.While being happy to align iteself with the Blairites and banker classes as part of that and to get it.

On that note yes let’s ‘regulate markets’ which by definition means protectionism.So how will Corbyn do that with his obvious hidden remain agenda in the form of staying with the EU single market.Which means continuing with the situation of Brit jobs for EU workers while nicking Brit taxes and imposing austerity at home to maintain our net contribution to the EU.While it’s also obvious that the EU isn’t the supposed protectionist barrier against exploitative Asian imports that Corbyn’s Soviet rabble pretends it is.While at best being meaningless to us in that what protection the EU might provide is all about geopolitics in protecting the interests of the German government and German workers and/or East Euro governments and workers.

While if Corbyn was really all about protectionism at home he’d obviously want to ditch the EU single market and withdraw from WTO agreements.When it’s clear that he’s really just another idealistic,opportunistic Marxist,to who the interests of the Brit working class are at the bottom of the zb’s list.While it’s equally obvious that Corbyn is also all about free movement here for every country so long as it fits his simplistic ideological agenda.

As I said it’s time for workers to wake up and realise that Socialism doesn’t have the monopoly on what’s good for the working class of this country and that there’s a big difference between Socialism v workplace solidarity.Solidarity being the key here within the protection of the Nation State.Not some bs failed political ideology which is actually all about enslaving workers in a dictatorial nightmare and calling it workers of the world unite.With the banker classes obviously seeing an advantage in that in also being easier for them to exploit,than the 1960’s US economic model was.

That explains the real reason for the unholy alliance between the Corbynites and the Blairites that is the present Labour Party rabble now.Just as it was under the Wilson and Callaghan regimes and it’s also why Brit and American workers have been thrown on the scrap heap,in favour of exploiting Communist Chinese/Oriental,Asian and East Euro ones and why we hear no protests from the so called Labour Party against it.Because the idea of the Nation State and looking after the interests of our own people is anathema to them. :unamused:

Carryfast:

Norfolkinclue1:
Carryfast, your post is utter garbage, pure fantasy. Picket lines are about hearts and minds…it takes quite a bit to offend me but your sixth form horse [zb] is pushing some buttons son.

:confused:

The point was that if picketing descends into conflict between scabs and pickets rather than sympathy and solidarity at the line,a strike has generally been lost at that point,along with the interests of the working class for all.Why would that fact offend anyone. :unamused:

Well said.

As for the idea that the NUM was powerless in the 1984 strike.Yes only because they were let down by the TUC by it not calling a general strike and the working class in general backing it.Combined with the previous Labour government not getting us out of the EU and imposing protectionist trade policies.

The rest being history for the working class of this country.Had things been different in that regard we’d have been in a totally different timeline from that point on.

The problem with the union barons was that they were determined not to let capitalism make profits, but had nothing they were willing to replace it with when the time came, and that moment of hesitation was the moment which the vampire, by then moribund, struck back for its life.

Even many miners were not socialists - one does not need to be a socialist to be in a combination, as evidenced by the existence of employers’ associations and supplier cartels!

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Norfolkinclue1:
Carryfast, your post is utter garbage, pure fantasy. Picket lines are about hearts and minds…it takes quite a bit to offend me but your sixth form horse [zb] is pushing some buttons son.

:confused:

The point was that if picketing descends into conflict between scabs and pickets rather than sympathy and solidarity at the line,a strike has generally been lost at that point,along with the interests of the working class for all.Why would that fact offend anyone. :unamused:

Well said.

As for the idea that the NUM was powerless in the 1984 strike.Yes only because they were let down by the TUC by it not calling a general strike and the working class in general backing it.Combined with the previous Labour government not getting us out of the EU and imposing protectionist trade policies.

The rest being history for the working class of this country.Had things been different in that regard we’d have been in a totally different timeline from that point on.

The problem with the union barons was that they were determined not to let capitalism make profits, but had nothing they were willing to replace it with when the time came, and that moment of hesitation was the moment which the vampire, by then moribund, struck back for its life.

Even many miners were not socialists - one does not need to be a socialist to be in a combination, as evidenced by the existence of employers’ associations and supplier cartels!

Ironically the miners’ strike of '84 was based on the stupidity of the employer classes importing heavily subsidised foreign coal,dug by workers with lower terms and conditions,thereby making the industry as a whole including themselves redundant.

IE how does taking out our own industry in favour of imports and furthering the interests of the foreign competition at the expense of our own fit the definition of the employers ‘striking back’.When what they actually did was nuked the whole economy on a hate crusade against British workers and their descendents.All based on the wrong assumption,that workers’ solidarity,to enforce the wage structure,that creates the high consumption environment which creates the profits,is supposedly bad.The fate of the UK mining industry being a perfect example of that.Preceded and/or followed by numerous others.

Which still leaves the question how does Corbyn,like Callaghan and Blair before him,see going on with the same old free markets bs,based on Brit jobs for foreign workers,in the form of imports and immigrant labour,as being a good thing for us.Oh wait Callaghan showed that the Labour Party doesn’t give a zb about the fortunes of Brit workers because the protectionist Nationalist policies it would take to do it go against everything that Socialism stands for.Preferring instead to hit workers with ‘wage restraint’ in the face of rip roaring price led inflation and doing what’s good for Germany etc not us and sidelining people like Benn,Heffer and Shore and now Hoey,in favour of treacherous muppets like Callaghan,Blair and now Corbyn. :imp:

Carryfast:

UKtramp:
Try to stop the agency workers entering or leaving and the police arrive and hand you a hefty fine.

You do know that the purpose of a picket line is about winning hearts and minds not confrontation and conflict.At that point the responsibility is on the ‘agency’ workers to make the choice between being a scab,thereby letting down the working class as a whole,or turning away and/or preferably voluntarily joining those on the picket line for a cup of tea and sandwiches.Bearing in mind that choosing the scab option will eventually come back to bite them in undermining their own terms and conditions. :bulb:

If you agree with what they are striking for, then fair enough. But what if you think the demands of the strikers are out of order, then why would you not carry on with your own work.

If you are supposed to stick with your ‘own’, ie the working class no matter what, then in theory I should always stick with and support the shabbiest of employers, despite being opposed to them.

albion:
If you are supposed to stick with your ‘own’, ie the working class no matter what, then in theory I should always stick with and support the shabbiest of employers, despite being opposed to them.

Just sat on the sidelines here (now that Carryfast is in full flow and taken over) but interesting that you distance yourself ftom the ‘Working Class’ because you employ people.
Can you not be an employer of a small firm and still be working class ?
Or do you come from a middle class background.
.I had up to 8 trucks at one time in a previous life, but I never considered myself anything else but working class.
Just curious.

UKtramp:
You can all kid yourselves on as much as you like that being in a union is somehow protecting you and your interests. Companies are no longer afraid of the unions and the unions have very little power over them. They are more like lawyers nowadays and looking out for themselves. The members of the unions (you) are even more afraid of losing their jobs and dare not rock the boat, wait until you end up in a situation that you need your mates and the union to stand by you, you will be sadly disappointed. The union rep will be on the lookout for himself and the union are doing the same thing, what are you left with? A bunch of lads who dare not say boo to a ghost. Union or no union, you are on your own. A complete waste of time.

One thing you raise here I think is right. What’s worse than no union? A compromised union! It’s bad news if you trust your union top brass are fighting for your good when in fact they’re on pay to lead you up a garden path. Like double agents. Especially if the terms are very complicated and you rely on the union to explain proposals. I’ve experienced this and it’s not good.

A good union is a decent thing. I’ve seen the results of with and without, kind of like a before and after shot :laughing: .

Freight Dog:
One thing you raise here I think is right. What’s worse than no union? A compromised union! It’s bad news if you trust your union top brass are fighting for your good when in fact they’re on pay to lead you up a garden path. Like double agents. Especially if the terms are very complicated and you rely on the union to explain proposals. I’ve experienced this and it’s not good.

A good union is a decent thing. I’ve seen the results of with and without, kind of like a before and after shot :laughing: .

One thing to note is in the days gone by when some jobs used to be unionised, you had to be a union member or join it in order to work at that place. This was in general a good thing for the workers as you had no option but to adhere to solidarity. Employers then feared the consequences of pushing the workforce against their will. Nowadays you have a mixed workforce where you are not forced to join any union and if the majority of the workforce is non union, then you are wasting your subs by being a member. You will certainly not be represented to your advantage nor will the union have very much leverage on that employer. The best union of all is if workers stuck together and backed each other up. Voiced their own concerns and gave sensible solutions to the employer. I have witnessed both good and bad with union membership, I have even fought unions myself and gone against them head to head and won. Unfortunately people have lost their willingness to stand up for themselves and a union nowadays is exactly what they want, fearful voiceless members who they can manipulate and gain subscriptions from week in week out. Some companies do not even recognise unions and will not deal with them, there will be some success stories of unions but in the large they are a waste of time.

robroy:

albion:
If you are supposed to stick with your ‘own’, ie the working class no matter what, then in theory I should always stick with and support the shabbiest of employers, despite being opposed to them.

Just sat on the sidelines here (now that Carryfast is in full flow and taken over) but interesting that you distance yourself ftom the ‘Working Class’ because you employ people.
Can you not be an employer of a small firm and still be working class ?
Or do you come from a middle class background.
.I had up to 8 trucks at one time in a previous life, but I never considered myself anything else but working class.
Just curious.

Define working class these days though Rob?
Many many years ago when we had big industry with large workforce’s it was easier to define. Now I don’t think so.
We have a much more mixed economy, more IT and service industry, so what’s the cut off point?
Is it wage, is it type of employment?
Take our industry, one driver might earn £12 an hour and another £8 so does the extra make you comfortable and therefore maybe middle class if you have a second household income.
Or in many places you have drivers on more than office and lower management ,who you would in days gone by, label as possibly middle class?

Oh and Carryfast, your essay level google drivel is still offensive to me. My experiences of the miners strike were that of a violent, intimidating and cowardly mob, so well organised that they would make any Irish sectarian outfit proud.
It had nothing to do with “hearts and minds” or public opinion or even the working classes. Oh and picket lines existed where they needed to, be it the school run, people’s homes and businesses, bars and car parks, anywhere indeed where violence and threats needed to be meated out to anyone who did not agree, miners or not. My family were affected and we had nothing to do with the industry.
I guess however Carryfast,when you are armed with time on your hands and access to google you really do know it all eh?
It was never going to go well when you had a vile lying bully like Scargill taking on an equally vile lying dictator like Thatcher. As always it was politics and not people.

robroy:

albion:
If you are supposed to stick with your ‘own’, ie the working class no matter what, then in theory I should always stick with and support the shabbiest of employers, despite being opposed to them.

Just sat on the sidelines here (now that Carryfast is in full flow and taken over) but interesting that you distance yourself ftom the ‘Working Class’ because you employ people.
Can you not be an employer of a small firm and still be working class ?
Or do you come from a middle class background.
.I had up to 8 trucks at one time in a previous life, but I never considered myself anything else but working class.
Just curious.

I know that Carryfast feeling Rob.

Carryfast was saying that you should support a strike by not crossing a picket line because of working class solidarity ( or something like, CBA looking back); I was just pointing out on that theory I should only support management/business owners as that is what I am now.

In reality, if I see management that I think is bad, I’ll call it. If I see a strike that I don’t agree with, then I don’t feel the need to support it.

My Dad drove lorries, my Mum packed incontinence pants at home. My first jobs were as a forklift driver - I couldn’t be middle class if I tried.

albion:
If you agree with what they are striking for, then fair enough. But what if you think the demands of the strikers are out of order, then why would you not carry on with your own work.

If you are supposed to stick with your ‘own’, ie the working class no matter what, then in theory I should always stick with and support the shabbiest of employers, despite being opposed to them.

Generally workers don’t strike for nothing.While the choice isn’t yours to be judge and jury as to the justification of their case.So tell us if the miners had been on the line striking for a three day 21 hour week for no loss of pay,to save their lungs being choked with coal dust,would you have driven through or stopped and parked up and joined them for a cup of tea then gone back to the yard ?.

Just been told by a lad on the ‘‘Toilets’’ thread, that he worked for a parcel firm who…wait for it…
Did not allow them to stop for a ■■■■ :open_mouth:

And then some of you lot say their is no real need for a Union??
FFS!! :unamused:
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Next time I’m out for a pint in my old home town, I can’'t wait to tell this gem to some of the old ex drivers who helped me learn the job when I was a young lad.
They don’t believe half of the ‘credible’'stuff I tell them about how the job has turned to ■■■■ as it is, …and what some drivers are like today since these guys retired…, they will think I’m taking the proverbial this time. :laughing:

robroy:
Just been told by a lad on the ‘‘Toilets’’ thread, that he worked for a parcel firm who…wait for it…
Did not allow them to stop for a ■■■■ :open_mouth:

And then some of you lot say their is no real need for a Union??
FFS!! :unamused:
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Next time I’m out for a pint in my old home town, I can’'t wait to tell this gem to some of the old ex drivers who helped me learn the job when I was a young lad.
They don’t believe half of the ‘credible’'stuff I tell them about how the job has turned to [zb] as it is, …and what some drivers are like today since these guys retired…, they will think I’m taking the proverbial this time. :laughing:

To be fair even in the ‘militant’ unionised 1970’s we agreed to compromise our breaks by sending one of us to collect the drinks and rolls and eating and drinking while we carried on working to save a 15 minute ‘break’ turning into 30 minutes or more by the time we’d queued and got settled in the canteen.While being away from your work station meant having to answer the question why before going or when you got back,toilet breaks included.Whether it was Ford or Leyland or my employers.

While I don’t know about others but I generally had no problem with running depot to depot without needing to stop.‘But’ ‘if’ I did feel like I needed to it was nothing like the issue it was that I experienced as a ‘militant’ factory worker.To the point where I wasn’t generally even asked the reason for the break on the tacho.On that note I’d guess that it’s possibly hearsay exaggeration or drivers interpreting what they’ve been told by managements wrongly.If not just defy/ignore it and see if they want to make an argument of it when push comes to shove ( doubtful ).

robroy:
Just been told by a lad on the ‘‘Toilets’’ thread, that he worked for a parcel firm who…wait for it…
Did not allow them to stop for a ■■■■ :open_mouth:

And then some of you lot say their is no real need for a Union??
FFS!! :unamused:
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

And so they need a union to allow the drivers to go for a ■■■■, FFS rob, I wouldn’t care who told me I couldn’t go for a a ■■■■, I would simply go for one if I needed to. There is not a person who would not if they had to go. Are you saying that you would ■■■■ yourself because you are not allowed to stop and go? There are such things nowadays called human rights and tribunals to take your employer to. I cannot see any tribunal going against the employee for that one.

UKtramp:

robroy:
Just been told by a lad on the ‘‘Toilets’’ thread, that he worked for a parcel firm who…wait for it…
Did not allow them to stop for a ■■■■ :open_mouth:

And then some of you lot say their is no real need for a Union??
FFS!! :unamused:
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

And so they need a union to allow the drivers to go for a ■■■■, FFS rob, I wouldn’t care who told me I couldn’t go for a a ■■■■, I would simply go for one if I needed to. There is not a person who would not if they had to go. Are you saying that you would ■■■■ yourself because you are not allowed to stop and go? There are such things nowadays called human rights and tribunals to take your employer to. I cannot see any tribunal going against the employee for that one.

UKt mate, …I know you don’t know me in real life, but seriously, do I have to answer that question? :unamused:
Do you really think for one minisecond that I would allow some little 2at in an office trying to tell me when and when not I am allowed to take a ■■■■. :open_mouth:
Away man, come on ffs. :unamused:

It just illustrates totally my whole point I have tried to make throughout this thread…We are totally divided, nobody has the balls for a fight except one or two, so this personifies all the crap that these companies chuck at us taking full advantage of said situation.
It’s like a running bet between them, a joke, to see just how far they can go.
The best laugh about it is…the drivers just go along with it. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Come to think of it, it aint that funny.!

robroy:

UKtramp:

robroy:
Just been told by a lad on the ‘‘Toilets’’ thread, that he worked for a parcel firm who…wait for it…
Did not allow them to stop for a ■■■■ :open_mouth:

And then some of you lot say their is no real need for a Union??
FFS!! :unamused:
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

And so they need a union to allow the drivers to go for a ■■■■, FFS rob, I wouldn’t care who told me I couldn’t go for a a ■■■■, I would simply go for one if I needed to. There is not a person who would not if they had to go. Are you saying that you would ■■■■ yourself because you are not allowed to stop and go? There are such things nowadays called human rights and tribunals to take your employer to. I cannot see any tribunal going against the employee for that one.

UKt mate, …I know you don’t know me in real life, but seriously, do I have to answer that question? :unamused:
Do you really think for one minisecond that I would allow some little 2at in an office trying to tell me when and when not I am allowed to take a ■■■■. :open_mouth:
Away man, come on ffs. :unamused:

It just illustrates totally my whole point I have tried to make throughout this thread…We are totally divided, nobody has the balls for a fight except one or two, so this personifies all the crap that these companies chuck at us taking full advantage of said situation.
It’s like a running bet between them, a joke, to see just how far they can go.
The best laugh about it is…the drivers just go along with it. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Come to think of it, it aint that funny.!

To be honest rob, no I didn’t put you into the category of ■■■■■■■ yourself in your truck as it is against company rules to stop and ■■■■. I am more surprised at your thinking that a union is needed to stamp that rule out though. I would simply ignore the rule like i do a lot of rules, speeding is a good example in my case.

DHL Airfreight had a ruling like that, you were supposed to ring in for authorisation if heading to the airport hub, like they said, we don’t care what is taken out of the vehicle, we are more concerned about what is going in it!

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