Trade deal with the US after Brexit

[hkloss1]

So, I am being called a loser.
How do you call a bunch of folk that couldn’t deal with their economic situation, felt threatened, by current economic system, and instead of working out how to improve their situation decided, they are so inept in improving anything for themselves, they decided to shut the door, isolate themselves from the rest of the world, make life difficult for the most productive, talented part of their population, by calling it quits, basicaly saying, " if we can’t make it, we will make your life so difficult, that you won’t make it neither".

To me,this description sound much more like proper losers.

No matter how much you cry and wail, world will move without you whether you like it or not, what your action will do, is , it will the most productive and most talented part of this country’s population move abroad, emigrate for good, where they are going to be able to contribute and help develop and enrich other countries, and believe me, there are a lot of them waiting with open arms,waiting not for you, bottom half, the proper losers, but for those that will get fed up with barriers that you are planning to impose on this country.

Losers force this country to leave, highest achievers will finish this country off by finally leaving for good.
We’ll see how good job you are going to do , trying to build this country on the back of your rare, highly skilled, professions, such as lorry drivers, etc.

Trump yesterday confirmed NHS is going to be on the table ,before panicking brexiters, told him, to correct it, for the time being, until brexit happens, and say the opposite, as it will kill brexit off.

[franglais]

hkloss1:
So…

Trump yesterday confirmed NHS is going to be on the table ,before panicking brexiters, told him, to correct it, for the time being, until brexit happens, and say the opposite, as it will kill brexit off.

Worth noting that isn’t just a one off “Trump Tweet”. Woody was saying the same thing too.
And look at Trump’s six month old trade deal with Mexico. He doesn’t like their attitude to their poorer southern neighbours so is unilaterally changing the trade deal. Effectively using a financial club to change a foreign independent country’s policy.
He also stresses “America First”, fine, fair enough. He isn’t saying UK before USA is he?
Deal with him fine. But as a smaller country out of the EU we won’t be “Holding all the cards” despite what we were told by Davies, Redwood, etc.

[muckles]

Franglais:

hkloss1:
So…

Trump yesterday confirmed NHS is going to be on the table ,before panicking brexiters, told him, to correct it, for the time being, until brexit happens, and say the opposite, as it will kill brexit off.

Worth noting that isn’t just a one off “Trump Tweet”. Woody was saying the same thing too.
And look at Trump’s six month old trade deal with Mexico. He doesn’t like their attitude to their poorer southern neighbours so is unilaterally changing the trade deal. Effectively using a financial club to change a foreign independent country’s policy.
He also stresses “America First”, fine, fair enough. He isn’t saying UK before USA is he?
Deal with him fine. But as a smaller country out of the EU we won’t be “Holding all the cards” despite what we were told by Davies, Redwood, etc.

The thing is TTIP held many of the same threats to the NHS and food standards we’re hearing about with the proposed UK/US trade deal, and many in the EU corridors of power where very keen to sign up to it, no doubt they also included many in the UK government, the pay off being greater access to the US markets for our financial institutions and of course our government could hide behind the excuse of it being an EU deal to divert the flack from them, while they sold off the NHS and bought shares in the US food giants, if we do a UK only deal they have nowhere to hide.

[franglais]

muckles:

Franglais:

hkloss1:
So…

Trump yesterday confirmed NHS is going to be on the table ,before panicking brexiters, told him, to correct it, for the time being, until brexit happens, and say the opposite, as it will kill brexit off.

Worth noting that isn’t just a one off “Trump Tweet”. Woody was saying the same thing too.
And look at Trump’s six month old trade deal with Mexico. He doesn’t like their attitude to their poorer southern neighbours so is unilaterally changing the trade deal. Effectively using a financial club to change a foreign independent country’s policy.
He also stresses “America First”, fine, fair enough. He isn’t saying UK before USA is he?
Deal with him fine. But as a smaller country out of the EU we won’t be “Holding all the cards” despite what we were told by Davies, Redwood, etc.

The thing is TTIP held many of the same threats to the NHS and food standards we’re hearing about with the proposed UK/US trade deal, and many in the EU corridors of power where very keen to sign up to it, no doubt they also included many in the UK government, the pay off being greater access to the US markets for our financial institutions and of course our government could hide behind the excuse of it being an EU deal to divert the flack from them, while they sold off the NHS and bought shares in the US food giants, if we do a UK only deal they have nowhere to hide.

They may have nowhere to hide after the deal is signed… but will they care?
.
I still reckon there are enough forces in the EU to hold our own free trade, open trade border, Brexiteers in check.
Could well be wrong though. But looking at a post June 10th Gov it looks bleak to me.
.
Again we seem to see the same potential problems, but we can’t agree on how to avoid them.
.
.

Dignitas?

[muckles]

Franglais:

muckles:

Franglais:

hkloss1:
So…

Trump yesterday confirmed NHS is going to be on the table ,before panicking brexiters, told him, to correct it, for the time being, until brexit happens, and say the opposite, as it will kill brexit off.

Worth noting that isn’t just a one off “Trump Tweet”. Woody was saying the same thing too.
And look at Trump’s six month old trade deal with Mexico. He doesn’t like their attitude to their poorer southern neighbours so is unilaterally changing the trade deal. Effectively using a financial club to change a foreign independent country’s policy.
He also stresses “America First”, fine, fair enough. He isn’t saying UK before USA is he?
Deal with him fine. But as a smaller country out of the EU we won’t be “Holding all the cards” despite what we were told by Davies, Redwood, etc.

The thing is TTIP held many of the same threats to the NHS and food standards we’re hearing about with the proposed UK/US trade deal, and many in the EU corridors of power where very keen to sign up to it, no doubt they also included many in the UK government, the pay off being greater access to the US markets for our financial institutions and of course our government could hide behind the excuse of it being an EU deal to divert the flack from them, while they sold off the NHS and bought shares in the US food giants, if we do a UK only deal they have nowhere to hide.

They may have nowhere to hide after the deal is signed… but will they care?
.
I still reckon there are enough forces in the EU to hold our own free trade, open trade border, Brexiteers in check.
Could well be wrong though. But looking at a post June 10th Gov it looks bleak to me.
.
Again we seem to see the same potential problems, but we can’t agree on how to avoid them.
.
.

Dignitas?

Having followed the developments of CETA, TTIP etc before Brexit I think there are as many free marketeers in the EU as in our own government, TTIP stalled but CETA is due to ratified.

The more I see of these people, in our government, other governments and the EU the more I think Guy Fawkes had the right idea.

[franglais]

muckles:

Franglais:

muckles:

Franglais:

hkloss1:
So…

Trump yesterday confirmed NHS is going to be on the table ,before panicking brexiters, told him, to correct it, for the time being, until brexit happens, and say the opposite, as it will kill brexit off.

Worth noting that isn’t just a one off “Trump Tweet”. Woody was saying the same thing too.
And look at Trump’s six month old trade deal with Mexico. He doesn’t like their attitude to their poorer southern neighbours so is unilaterally changing the trade deal. Effectively using a financial club to change a foreign independent country’s policy.
He also stresses “America First”, fine, fair enough. He isn’t saying UK before USA is he?
Deal with him fine. But as a smaller country out of the EU we won’t be “Holding all the cards” despite what we were told by Davies, Redwood, etc.

The thing is TTIP held many of the same threats to the NHS and food standards we’re hearing about with the proposed UK/US trade deal, and many in the EU corridors of power where very keen to sign up to it, no doubt they also included many in the UK government, the pay off being greater access to the US markets for our financial institutions and of course our government could hide behind the excuse of it being an EU deal to divert the flack from them, while they sold off the NHS and bought shares in the US food giants, if we do a UK only deal they have nowhere to hide.

They may have nowhere to hide after the deal is signed… but will they care?
.
I still reckon there are enough forces in the EU to hold our own free trade, open trade border, Brexiteers in check.
Could well be wrong though. But looking at a post June 10th Gov it looks bleak to me.
.
Again we seem to see the same potential problems, but we can’t agree on how to avoid them.
.
.

Dignitas?

Having followed the developments of CETA, TTIP etc before Brexit I think there are as many free marketeers in the EU as in our own government, TTIP stalled but CETA is due to ratified.

The more I see of these people, in our government, other governments and the EU the more I think Guy Fawkes had the right idea.

I can’t say you’re wrong…
I wish, with respect, I could prove you wrong, but I can’t.
It’s not often I feel like an optimist, but your view of World Politics is…worrying…?
I’ve still got some hope in the EU even with all it’s faults. But no hope in the world ReesMogg, Farage, Redwood, Johnson etc have planned.
.
The EU is like democracy: it’s the worse choice.
Apart from all the other choices, that is.
.
You talk sense, in identifying problems, but I don’t see that leaving the EU is in any form or way a solution to them.
But I CAN see that leaving the EU would introduce more problems.

[robroy]

hkloss1:
So, I am being called a loser.
How do you call a bunch of folk that couldn’t deal with their economic situation, felt threatened, by current economic system, and instead of working out how to improve their situation decided, they are so inept in improving anything for themselves, they decided to shut the door, isolate themselves from the rest of the world, make life difficult for the most productive, talented part of their population, by calling it quits, basicaly saying, " if we can’t make it, we will make your life so difficult, that you won’t make it neither".

To me,this description sound much more like proper losers.

No matter how much you cry and wail, world will move without you whether you like it or not, what your action will do, is , it will the most productive and most talented part of this country’s population move abroad, emigrate for good, where they are going to be able to contribute and help develop and enrich other countries, and believe me, there are a lot of them waiting with open arms,waiting not for you, bottom half, the proper losers, but for those that will get fed up with barriers that you are planning to impose on this country.

Losers force this country to leave, highest achievers will finish this country off by finally leaving for good.
We’ll see how good job you are going to do , trying to build this country on the back of your rare, highly skilled, professions, such as lorry drivers, etc.

Trump yesterday confirmed NHS is going to be on the table ,before panicking brexiters, told him, to correct it, for the time being, until brexit happens, and say the opposite, as it will kill brexit off.

Ffs mate, that post should win some kind of prize for the Remainer’s prophet of Doom award .
I aint reading this thread any longer.
I can’t decide whether to ■■■■■ my wrists or reach for the family size paracetomols.
Jeez H Christ you’ve got it bad mate.

[franglais]

robroy:

Darkside:
Mate you don’t understand. I lost. I respect the vote. Please tell me what WE won!

.

Easy…you won nothing as you lost what you voted for.
I won what I voted for, which was a simple IN or OUT vote, no caviats, no conditions simply in or out.
As you know despite the leaflet campaign, presumably funded by us the taxpayer (including Brexiteers) that we all got through our doors pre vote, and similar tactiics by the Govt trying to swing the vote, they got a bloody nose, so treachery towards democracy prevailed, and we are still in there.

I personally have no desire to be part of a European superstate where our laws are made for us and the ones we do make are vetoed.
As for trade, despite the end of the world as we know it preceded by a plague of locusts that you lot keep banging on about, things WILL work themselves out.
I do not know the ins and outs of a solution, I drive a truck not attend Parliament daily, so lets leave it to a pro Brexit PM this time to sort it.

The original reason we joined the EU, or common market as it was called, was for reasons of trade.
If we wanted to be ruled exclusively by some sort of unelected European government, those heroic guys who died 75 yrs ago tomorrow, should just have stayed at home on that day, and let it take it’s course then.

Which UK laws have been “vetoed by Europe”?
“Ruled by an unelected EU Parliament”? After the EU elections last week, what exactly do you mean?
.
Hear Dominic Raab yesterday? Talking about shoving through Brexit (if he is PM) when Parliament is in recess, so they can’t get a say. Who may be electing him as PM? The UK electorate? Have you and I got a vote about who will lead our country after June 10th?
.
I’ve said already that the EU ain’t perfect. But in the Real World nothing is.
If we reject EU membership look at the Real alternatives. Outside of the already proven false promises of the Leave campaign what is there?
Trump won’t be President forever, but we can see already how fragile are any deals with the US.

[darkside]

Franglais:

robroy:

Darkside:
Mate you don’t understand. I lost. I respect the vote. Please tell me what WE won!

.

Easy…you won nothing as you lost what you voted for.
I won what I voted for, which was a simple IN or OUT vote, no caviats, no conditions simply in or out.
As you know despite the leaflet campaign, presumably funded by us the taxpayer (including Brexiteers) that we all got through our doors pre vote, and similar tactiics by the Govt trying to swing the vote, they got a bloody nose, so treachery towards democracy prevailed, and we are still in there.

I personally have no desire to be part of a European superstate where our laws are made for us and the ones we do make are vetoed.
As for trade, despite the end of the world as we know it preceded by a plague of locusts that you lot keep banging on about, things WILL work themselves out.
I do not know the ins and outs of a solution, I drive a truck not attend Parliament daily, so lets leave it to a pro Brexit PM this time to sort it.

The original reason we joined the EU, or common market as it was called, was for reasons of trade.
If we wanted to be ruled exclusively by some sort of unelected European government, those heroic guys who died 75 yrs ago tomorrow, should just have stayed at home on that day, and let it take it’s course then.

Which UK laws have been “vetoed by Europe”?
“Ruled by an unelected EU Parliament”? After the EU elections last week, what exactly do you mean?
.
Hear Dominic Raab yesterday? Talking about shoving through Brexit (if he is PM) when Parliament is in recess, so they can’t get a say. Who may be electing him as PM? The UK electorate? Have you and I got a vote about who will lead our country after June 10th?
.
I’ve said already that the EU ain’t perfect. But in the Real World nothing is.
If we reject EU membership look at the Real alternatives. Outside of the already proven false promises of the Leave campaign what is there?
Trump won’t be President forever, but we can see already how fragile are any deals with the US.

I also hear about our Laws being made for us, but we have the power of veto, so that is another nonsense.

[winseer]

In any trade deal with the US we’d have the option of buying what we want to buy, and selling the yanks whatever we can sell them.

Who’s going to be under pressure to buy anything they don’t want to here?

Franken Foods, Chlorinated Chicken, Dead Animal flesh that contains Meat, or dare I say - popular stuff we cannot get in the UK at all at present, or only at exhorbitant prices…

What would the Americans want to buy from US food-wise? Booze from Scotland, Specialist Cheeses like Stilton (The one near soon-to-be-won Yaxley of Peterbrough district, rather than Yaxley Lennon of no fixed address…) and of course Instant Coffee!

[chrisdalott]

Juddian:
:twisted:

■■■■ it up ladies, Brexit is coming and all the wailing in your soup isn’t going to change a thing , if the conlab traitors in parl think they can bluster and stall leaving indefinately in the hope we give up and resume voting for the dead parties they are sorely mistaken, they’ll simply be replaced by the Brexit Party come the next election… all starting Thursday in Peterborough…who will do the job for them.

Brexit party fail yet again in Peterborough just like ukip have
Splitting the right wing vote like this should result in a labour victory, at the head of SNP and liberal coalition

■■■■ it up ladies

[grumpy_dad]

chrisdalott:

Juddian:
:twisted:

■■■■ it up ladies, Brexit is coming and all the wailing in your soup isn’t going to change a thing , if the conlab traitors in parl think they can bluster and stall leaving indefinately in the hope we give up and resume voting for the dead parties they are sorely mistaken, they’ll simply be replaced by the Brexit Party come the next election… all starting Thursday in Peterborough…who will do the job for them.

Brexit party fail yet again in Peterborough just like ukip have
Splitting the right wing vote like this should result in a labour victory, at the head of SNP and liberal coalition

■■■■ it up ladies

Labour in No.10 ■■ Really you think that ■■ Labour are as disjointed as the Tories are, there’s not one party who haven’t got major problems within their members, remind us which party has members being investigated for anti Semitic remarks could that be Labour ?
And I’m guessing you’d be willing to vote for Corbyn who hasn’t a clue what’s happening he’s like a startled rabbit caught in the headlights of the political go cart his party is on.
Ethically he’s anti British, supporter and friend of terrorists, supporter of dictators, anti military, his vision of free education in universities is farcical, who will foot the bill, the workers ? Can’t see that happening as he backs increased immigration which will in turn increase British unemployment and increase social handouts, he’s stated he’ll build 1m homes for the social housing sector, who is paying for this, Corbyns dream for Britain ? ■■■■■■■ nightmare !!

[muckles]

chrisdalott:

Juddian:
:twisted:

■■■■ it up ladies, Brexit is coming and all the wailing in your soup isn’t going to change a thing , if the conlab traitors in parl think they can bluster and stall leaving indefinately in the hope we give up and resume voting for the dead parties they are sorely mistaken, they’ll simply be replaced by the Brexit Party come the next election… all starting Thursday in Peterborough…who will do the job for them.

Brexit party fail yet again in Peterborough just like ukip have
Splitting the right wing vote like this should result in a labour victory, at the head of SNP and liberal coalition

■■■■ it up ladies

Labour are as split on Brexit as the Tories, and unlike the Tories they have a leader who has campaigned for the UK to leave the EU for decades.
It amazes me why those in the remain camp and media who support Jeremy Corbyn never ask why he and many on the left of the Labour Party, (that is those in the Labour Party who aren’t Blairites Tory lites ) don’t support the EU.

[muckles]

chrisdalott:

Juddian:
:twisted:

■■■■ it up ladies, Brexit is coming and all the wailing in your soup isn’t going to change a thing , if the conlab traitors in parl think they can bluster and stall leaving indefinately in the hope we give up and resume voting for the dead parties they are sorely mistaken, they’ll simply be replaced by the Brexit Party come the next election… all starting Thursday in Peterborough…who will do the job for them.

Brexit party fail yet again in Peterborough just like ukip have
Splitting the right wing vote like this should result in a labour victory, at the head of SNP and liberal coalition

■■■■ it up ladies

Instead of crowing about the Brexit party losing, you should be more concerned that they came 2nd only losing by 683 votes, 29% compared to Labour 31%, Labour had 48% in 21017, the best UKIP ever did in Peterborough was 15% of the vote.

And be careful extrapolating these figures to a General Election, firstly by-elections are often protest votes, secondly you could as equally see a Brexit Conservtive coalition, as a Labour, Liberal, SNP one. Although going into coalition with Brexit party might actually tear the conservative apart, we can dream.

[darkside]

muckles:

chrisdalott:

Juddian:
:twisted:

■■■■ it up ladies, Brexit is coming and all the wailing in your soup isn’t going to change a thing , if the conlab traitors in parl think they can bluster and stall leaving indefinately in the hope we give up and resume voting for the dead parties they are sorely mistaken, they’ll simply be replaced by the Brexit Party come the next election… all starting Thursday in Peterborough…who will do the job for them.

Brexit party fail yet again in Peterborough just like ukip have
Splitting the right wing vote like this should result in a labour victory, at the head of SNP and liberal coalition

■■■■ it up ladies

Instead of crowing about the Brexit party losing, you should be more concerned that they came 2nd only losing by 683 votes, 29% compared to Labour 31%, Labour had 48% in 21017, the best UKIP ever did in Peterborough was 15% of the vote.

And be careful extrapolating these figures to a General Election, firstly by-elections are often protest votes, secondly you could as equally see a Brexit Conservtive coalition, as a Labour, Liberal, SNP one. Although going into coalition with Brexit party might actually tear the conservative apart, we can dream.

I hope any Labour voters are walking around Peterborough saying ‘We won, you lost, get over it!’

[juddian]

Whilst a pity TBP didn’t get over the line at P’Boro, it was still a remarkable result for a party barely 2 months old led by someone hated by the propaganda wings (the msm) of all the 2.5 mainstream parties.

Congratulations to the Labour candidate though, she got enough votes and that’s what counts in the end.

TBP will learn from this, and it will be interesting to see what happens should there me any more by-elections in different areas of the country.

Whether the Tories have the wit to realise the game is up for them unless they provide a meaningful Brexit come Oct 31st remains to be seen, the future does indeed look bleak for the Tory party and they have no one but themselves to blame.

I’ll ■■■■ the result up, just like all politically minded people do when they lose a democratic vote…oh wait

[rjan]

Juddian:
Whilst a pity TBP didn’t get over the line at P’Boro, it was still a remarkable result for a party barely 2 months old led by someone hated by the propaganda wings (the msm) of all the 2.5 mainstream parties.

Farage is hardly a loathed figure. He doesn’t pretend to be anything but a right-wing buccaneer. And not even a far-right figure really, but simply more Thatcherite economics.

The question of why working people support him, when they stand to have their wages slashed, their workplaces offshored, their public assets sold for profit, and their taxes handed over to the rich, is another question, but it does not appear to be based on any misrepresentation by the man himself.

And whilst this particular vehicle of his is 2 months old, the reality is Farage has been doing this gig for 20 years.

Congratulations to the Labour candidate though, she got enough votes and that’s what counts in the end.

TBP will learn from this, and it will be interesting to see what happens should there me any more by-elections in different areas of the country.

Whether the Tories have the wit to realise the game is up for them unless they provide a meaningful Brexit come Oct 31st remains to be seen, the future does indeed look bleak for the Tory party and they have no one but themselves to blame.

I’ll ■■■■ the result up, just like all politically minded people do when they lose a democratic vote…oh wait

The problem for the Tory party is that they don’t actually have enough MPs, and their main lobby groups, bankrollers, and their natural business interests constituency, are not actually in favour of Brexit - certainly not of the hardest kind, anyway. A large number of their traditional electoral constituency are also not in favour of Brexit.

And if they call a GE, then they face the risk of losing even more MPs and handing victory to Corbyn.

Especially once focus returns to the Corbyn manifesto, as it did in 2017 when Labour surged from the doldrums in the polls to achieve one of its best results since 1966.

A lot of businesses are actually coming around to the idea that giving £10 an hour to their workforce, and letting McDonnell have a crack of the whip in No 11, might actually be less costly to profit than what the right-wing radicals are plotting.

It’s the same as in 1974 when the powers that be finally decided that Heath’s policies on a whole range of matters, including but certainly not limited to the confrontation with organised labour, weren’t working even in their own terms.

I’m also curious Juddian, what do you really expect to gain from a hard-right Brexit?

The grand prize of Brexit for the Tory right appears to be a trade deal with the US. A trade deal that even the EU rejected.

When did dropping tariffs with a country that treats its workers worse than ours and has lower regulatory standards than ours, ever do workers here any good?

[muckles]

Rjan:

Juddian:
Whilst a pity TBP didn’t get over the line at P’Boro, it was still a remarkable result for a party barely 2 months old led by someone hated by the propaganda wings (the msm) of all the 2.5 mainstream parties.

Farage is hardly a loathed figure. He doesn’t pretend to be anything but a right-wing buccaneer. And not even a far-right figure really, but simply more Thatcherite economics.

Certain sections of the media and political establishment do try and paint him as some radical figure, when as you’ve quite rightly pointed out he would fit in very well in the Conservative party.

Rjan:
The question of why working people support him, when they stand to have their wages slashed, their workplaces offshored, their public assets sold for profit, and their taxes handed over to the rich, is another question, but it does not appear to be based on any misrepresentation by the man himself.

He does understand how to manage his PR, no doubt helped by certain sections of the media who support his agenda. However what he’s also done, which the mainstream politicians seem to have lost the ability, is to engage with those who feel ignored by those in the Westminster political bubble.

Rjan:
The problem for the Tory party is that they don’t actually have enough MPs, and their main lobby groups, bankrollers, and their natural business interests constituency, are not actually in favour of Brexit - certainly not of the hardest kind, anyway. A large number of their traditional electoral constituency are also not in favour of Brexit.

And if they call a GE, then they face the risk of losing even more MPs and handing victory to Corbyn.

With the way things are I doubt anybody would like to predict the results of a General Election. MP’s of all parties and view points need to sort something out, but are too wrapped up in their own political games to worry about what the uncertainty is doing to the country.

Rjan:
The grand prize of Brexit for the Tory right appears to be a trade deal with the US. A trade deal that even the EU rejected.

The EU rejected TTIP?
Depending on whom you side with either the election of Donald Trump and his rejection of all Trade deals being done under the Obama regime or the grass roots protests against it made it too uncomfortable to the EU leadership to continue, at least for the time being.

People power is ending TTIP and other unpopular EU free-trade deals | Molly...

TTIP reloaded: big business calls the shots on new EU-US trade talks |...

Rjan:
When did dropping tariffs with a country that treats its workers worse than ours and has lower regulatory standards than ours, ever do workers here any good?

+1

[muckles]

Franglais:

muckles:
Having followed the developments of CETA, TTIP etc before Brexit I think there are as many free marketeers in the EU as in our own government, TTIP stalled but CETA is due to ratified.

The more I see of these people, in our government, other governments and the EU the more I think Guy Fawkes had the right idea.

I can’t say you’re wrong…
I wish, with respect, I could prove you wrong, but I can’t.
It’s not often I feel like an optimist, but your view of World Politics is…worrying…?
I’ve still got some hope in the EU even with all it’s faults. But no hope in the world ReesMogg, Farage, Redwood, Johnson etc have planned.
.
The EU is like democracy: it’s the worse choice.
Apart from all the other choices, that is.
.
You talk sense, in identifying problems, but I don’t see that leaving the EU is in any form or way a solution to them.
But I CAN see that leaving the EU would introduce more problems.

Personally I don’t see leaving or staying in the EU a solution to the problems, the problems are far too deep, embedded in every rich democracy, promoted by multi-nationals, globalists.

We need not just reform, but wholesale change, this won’t happen while those in power, either in Westminster or Brussels, are not at least shaken out of their complacency that the electorate are just going to let them carry on.
It hasn’t helped that for the last few decades there hasn’t been an alternative, one group looks pretty like the other with not much between what they have to offer and a culpable media making sure any alternative don’t get coverage, the internet and social media has changed this, allowing ordinary people to spread their views across the globe, which is no doubt why governments are looking at ways to control it.

[franglais]

Grumpy Dad:
Labour in No.10 ■■ Really you think that ■■ Labour are as disjointed as the Tories are, there’s not one party who haven’t got major problems within their members, remind us which party has members being investigated for anti Semitic remarks could that be Labour ?
And I’m guessing you’d be willing to vote for Corbyn who hasn’t a clue what’s happening he’s like a startled rabbit caught in the headlights of the political go cart his party is on.
Ethically he’s anti British, supporter and friend of terrorists, supporter of dictators, anti military, his vision of free education in universities is farcical, who will foot the bill, the workers ? Can’t see that happening as he backs increased immigration which will in turn increase British unemployment and increase social handouts, he’s stated he’ll build 1m homes for the social housing sector, who is paying for this, Corbyns dream for Britain ? [zb] nightmare !!

Corbyn has problems, for sure, but,
Anti-British?
Supporter of terrorists?
Supporter of dictators?
Anti-military?
Free university education worked well enough before the right and center right expanded further education to put a price on everything. Should university education go only to the rich? Surely its better for all to have free education for the most able. I dont say that there should be no selection, there should: university education cant be for all who want it, unfortunately, but the criteria should be the ability of the student, and their contribution to society afterwards, not the wealth of the parents!
What is wrong with progressive taxation? Those who get degrees should get jobs with better pay and so pay more tax. Easy ain`t it? Nothing farcical there.

Immigration is backed by the Tories as much as by Labour. They just tell more lies about it.
And the overly simple cause/effect you say of increased immigration/unemployment is at the least contentious.

And you think we shouldnt build more social housing? Why? Is the present housing stock adequate? Are private builders doing a good job? No and No. Money needs to be found of course, but that is the true job of Government. Just waving their hands and expecting the magic hand of the free market to do it hasnt worked yet, and why would it later?