To be honest, despite many years as a HGV fitter (albeit 30+ years ago before auto slack adjusters were widely used), those pics mean very little to me unless I was also shown a photo of a brand new part to compare them with. I wonder if the jury were shown anything similar as I doubt those pics would mean a thing to them on their own? Also describing a part as “dirty”, what’s that all about! In 1996 I had a brand new Foden eight legger with auto adjusters and after a few months they were hopeless, the brakes still needed manual adjustment at each monthly service but maybe they have improved them since then?
shep532:
I think the current training and testing regime simply is not good enough.
But to comment on What Juddian has posted - the current driving style taught would be OK
I think you’ve contradicted yourself.Like mine I’m sure that Juddian’s point is the training regime having removed the idea of using gears and thereby engine braking to slow at all times to minimise brake temperatures and maximise reserve heat capacity.All historically based on flawed brakes to slow gears to go block change downshifts police car driving practice which has the potential to cook car brakes let alone heavy truck ones.Bearing in mind that I’ve posted elsewhere evidence taken from Commercial Motor archives going back to 1968 of said police driving instruction method being suggested then for use with trucks.All seemingly based on the idea that drivers don’t have the ability to match road and engine speeds correctly during downshifts,so instead let’s rely on the brakes and just put it into the gear we’ll need to drive away with when we’ve slowed it down on the brakes to the required speed.
I don’t think I have contradicted myself.
I completely agree with the driving method of using the gearbox for engine and exhaust braking when required - however I am also able to acknowledge that in a modern well maintained vehicle and in most normal driving circumstances the current method taught is suitable. It wouldn’t have been many years ago.
In this tipper case, had the brakes have been correctly maintained and adjusted etc he’d not have had the problem to the degree he did - then had he been taught correctly he’d have been going down the hill mainly on the gears - not brakes.
I do think some people kiss the point that brakes are much improved in design and brake materials.
It all comes down to training and then experience. My local training provider does cover all methods so maybe it’s only some that don’t. But, drivers do need to be taught when and where to use which method
Firstly I have to say that I share oao’s reservations even regarding this case.But in which we’ll never know now if those reservations are valid or not.Because,with the slight exception of the statement/acknowledgment,that the brakes wouldn’t have had time to cool,between slowing down from the NSL to the turn into the junction,to the start of the descent,neither the defence nor prosecution investigated that line of thinking further.
In which case it isn’t a case of ‘when and where’ to use gears to slow.It’s a case of brakes to slow gears to go not realistically often,if ever,being the correct option.On the basis that maintaining relatively cooler brakes than hotter ones is/should always be the priority.Especially when the next hazard ahead could be a severe down grade for example.The scenario of NSL approach to a roundabout,or series of roundabouts,or a junction,followed by a severe descent being the potential perfect storm in showing up the equally potential catastrophic flaws in the brakes to slow gears to go driving theory.
On that note I for one count myself lucky that I instinctively drove on the gears to slow mantra.As opposed to the brakes to slow gears to go mantra which I was taught to use during my HGV instruction.Especially on the approach to the old Reigate Hill into Reigate along the A 217 with a Clydesdale loaded to its max and 1970’s vintage artics into Dewsbury from the M1.
While seeing no reason to change that line of thinking even with ‘modern’ disc braked types.Bearing in mind that the theory in question was in place long before ‘modern’ disc braked trucks were introduced ( 1960’s ) which suggests that it was never about the idea that brakes are ‘better’ ‘now’.Also bearing in mind,as in this case,that even the old school drum braked heavy vehicle type is still around.While even discs don’t provide infinite temperature reserve capacity margins.
In 1965 I worked at a tar distillery with their own trucks repairing them and when I was twenty one I got sent out on them as well. I only had a motorbike and there was no training or tuition it was get on with it and learn, common sense playing a large part of it. I remember the first time I took out a Mammouth Major and trying to work out a route where I would not have to stop on a hill because the ratchet on and knock off handbrake worried me. The old Scammell below reg OHW 34 was also on the road and the gears hardly made it go and likewise the brakes stop. We used to deliver to a quarry on a very steep lane coming off the top of the Mendips down to the levels. The proceedure was to stop at the top of the hill because it was a gate change and engage a low gear and also open the cab door. This was in case something let go on the transmission and it ran away. Plan B was to bail out of the door quick.
I soon learnt that it was a better life driving the lorries than mending them and drove for 43 years until retirement. I had a taste of the modern truckers life but there is no way you drivers today can have a taste of what it was like for us in the 60,s or 70,s.
Have a good Christmas and wish for a happy 2017. Phil.
To be honest, despite many years as a HGV fitter (albeit 30+ years ago before auto slack adjusters were widely used), those pics mean very little to me unless I was also shown a photo of a brand new part to compare them with. I wonder if the jury were shown anything similar as I doubt those pics would mean a thing to them on their own? Also describing a part as “dirty”, what’s that all about! In 1996 I had a brand new Foden eight legger with auto adjusters and after a few months they were hopeless, the brakes still needed manual adjustment at each monthly service but maybe they have improved them since then?
Pete.
I had to think about those aswell as they meant sod all to me either. I packed in the spanners on trucks in 1993 which was about the time that type of slack adjuster came in. Mate of the family works on trucks today, and I asked him about that bracket. It just does the job that the 9/16 socket used to do on the slack adjuster. If it fails and snaps off though, it will fail to adjust and you’ll quickly bottom out the brake chamber travel.
Funnily enough, he also works for a local firm that run alot (self employed) of 32t tippers.
He told me that all the drivers were hauled into the office recently and were told to slow down and use brakes less and gears more as they were getting through brakes like nobodys business!!
How bloody ironic is that■■?
Its the best part of a decade since i retired, and,somewhere along the way i missed the bit where the legislation was changed to allow 18yr olds to drive 32t HGVs.
If the unfortunate Philip Potter was only 19 when the accident happened,then,that means he would have only been a licensed road user for about 2 years, cars included.I have always been of the opinion that learning to drive comes ‘after’ you have passed your test.
Whilst i would not suggest that 18yr olds were not capable of handling loaded HGVs, after all 18yr old soldiers,male and female, drive tank transporters, the military,in peacetime. is a highly controlled environment and not the cut and thrust of,‘get there quick,and back even quicker’ of tipper haulage in the real world.
Of course experience can only be gained by,well, doing the job as it really is. However i cannot help but think that jumping from a car to a 32t lorry in such a short space of time is asking for trouble.
Does this 18yr limit apply to top weight artics as well.? , Where did the pressure to lower the age limit come from,? More to the point,why?.
Apprentice drivers,? Apprentice wages?. I have a uneasy feeling about this.
I genuinely feel for Philip Potter. Some 45yrs ago i was at the wheel of a loaded 8 wheel tipper, 24t back then, Easter Saturday 1969.
In a Guy Invincible , i had dropped it down to 2nd and began the descent into Ashbourne, in Derbyshire. It was obvious almost immediately that the brakes had decided to have a rest.
In front of me was a steep hill, a crowded market place,a sharp right hander and a set of traffic lights.
Luckily there was a substantial stone wall on my nearside, i used that for brakes.
No one was hurt,only my pride, and the gaffers wallet. to the tune of £1,000+.
It was a salutary lesson.
All these years on i still wonder, was it my fault, even partly ,given that the Guys brakes were not its best feature.
That jury in Bristol made the right decision.
pyewacket947v:
Some 45yrs ago i was at the wheel of a loaded 8 wheel tipper, 24t back then, Easter Saturday 1969.
In a Guy Invincible , i had dropped it down to 2nd and began the descent into Ashbourne, in Derbyshire. I
I close the evidence for the defence, you were descending the hill as best you could in roughly the same gear you would have gone up in, therefore completely blameless, and you saved the day because you could run the minor (though it probably didn’t feel like it at the time) excess momentum the gears couldn’t hold back on that stone wall, not sure you learned a lesson at all you simply confirmed that driving a lorry as a lorry should be driven, in the appropriate gear with the bloke behind the wheel in charge, resulted in a minor incident only and not the tragedy it would have been had you been taught only to brake, as is the way now.
I can see nothing else you could have done, save pull up at the top of the hill and adjust all the brakes up, then do you do that daily, every hour, what?
Haulage boss and mechanic to be sentenced on Friday 27th January 2017.
According to Phillips Facebook campaign, he did his daily pre trip walk around checks on that fateful day.
His friends commented how safety conscious he is .
Boss/mechanic remain in custody until sentencing .
If you are reading this Phillip, don’t beat yourself up, all the best for the future .
Get off the benefit system and get in the saddle ,driving trucks again.
I would employ you, and so would many others .
Keep off the medication route for depression or anxiety .
Time is a healer.
robinswh:
I suppose the insurance companies will prevent Mr Potter from ever driving a lorry for a living again
Good question but I doubt they would make it stick in the circumstances.
I reckon he’s a good bloke who just got caught trying to scrape a pittance working for a pair of mike hunts.
Its those 2 pricks that should be banned from coming within a mile of any truck again up until they both have their pine over coats on!
The only defendant(s) missing from the trial was the training industry or at least the brass who instruct them, who sent this lad out virtually untrained in how to control a loaded commercial vehicle in anything other than perfect conditions.
The fact it didn’t have a working exhaust brake was more or less irrelevant because unless it was in the correct, low as possible gear for max engine braking the exhaust brake would have been all but useless anyway.
There should be a third party awaiting sentence at Her Maj’s pleasure here, the training industry or whoever came up with (and refuses to acknowledge, despite it being obvious to anyone who actually works in the industry that gtg-bts should not apply to lorries) the present design should be there with the other two.
Juddian:
The only defendant(s) missing from the trial was the training industry or at least the brass who instruct them, who sent this lad out virtually untrained in how to control a loaded commercial vehicle in anything other than perfect conditions.
The fact it didn’t have a working exhaust brake was more or less irrelevant because unless it was in the correct, low as possible gear for max engine braking the exhaust brake would have been all but useless anyway.
There should be a third party awaiting sentence at Her Maj’s pleasure here, the training industry or whoever came up with (and refuses to acknowledge, despite it being obvious to anyone who actually works in the industry that gtg-bts should not apply to lorries) the present design should be there with the other two.
Aye indeed, never heard so much ■■■■■■■■ in my life (gtg-bts).
I can not see a reason why insurance firms will not insure Mr Potter, the jury have cleared him of all charges , he is now a free man ,and able to get insurance .
toby1234abc:
I can not see a reason why insurance firms will not insure Mr Potter, the jury have cleared him of all charges , he is now a free man ,and able to get insurance .
At 17 years old and 3 months after passing my test in a car, a drunk ran in to the side of my van (morris 1000 borrowed from my father) and he died. An inquest was held and I was exonerated from all blame… My fathers insurance company refused to insure him unless I was taken off the policy even though no claim was made. He left the gits and went somewhere else.
In Canada about twenty years ago I made a claim for flood damage in a property that I owned …the insurance company paid up the claim about $15000 I believe then promptly cut me off I had my car insurance with them too…I also had to go elsewhere.
Bath tipper crash firm associate, Simon Nicholls, granted O-licence
19 January 2017
An individual connected to Grittenham Haulage, the firm involved in the Bath tipper collision, has been granted a new O-licence to operate on the same site as that company.
Simon Nicholls, who currently operates as Simon John Nicholls, had also run two separate companies on the same site until 2011.
Grittenham Haulage, based at Whites Farm in Grittenham, had its O-licence revoked in December 2015, after the operator was found to have committed 124 transport offences over 15 weeks.
However in November last year Simon Nicholls, who was fined for two offences in the traffic commissioner’s written decision against Grittenham Haulage, was granted a licence to run three vehicles from the same address.
Nicholls held O-licences for two former companies, Flatlight and SJN Commercials, on the site before Grittenham Haulage was formed, both of which were revoked.
The Office of the Traffic Commissioner (OTC) confirmed that Flatlight’s licence was revoked in 2011 when the company was placed in liquidation.
While running Flatlight, Nicholls was called to a PI where his repute as a transport manager was found to be “severely tarnished”.
OTC said his reputation was in tact when he applied for his most recent O-licence in 2015.
Grittenham Haulage boss Matthew Gordon, who was found guilty of manslaughter in the Bath tipper trial, was employed by Nicholls at Flatlight.
Gordon told the jury during the trial that Nicholls remained involved at Grittenham Haulage despite the TC’s recommendation that he did not hire him as a transport manager.
OTC confirmed that Gordon originally nominated Nicholls as transport manager at Grittenham Haulage, but replaced him with Simon Dolman prior to the application being granted.
Gordon said that Nicholls assisted with vehicle maintenance at Grittenham Haulage, and had helped inspect the vehicle involved in the collision two months prior to the incident.
He also revealed that he had taken advice from Nicholls while acting, unqualified, as a transport manager between September 2014 and February 2015.
Nicholls had not responded to a request for comment at the time of publication.
In 1996 I had a brand new Foden eight legger with auto adjusters and after a few months they were hopeless, the brakes still needed manual adjustment at each monthly service but maybe they have improved them since then?
