UKtramp:
If more working men and women could simply come together and stand by each other then they could work magic. Look at how everyone is on here and look at how great this site could be if only people were standing by each other instead of wanting to tear each other to shreds or grass up their work mates. Solidarity works well and can do wonderful things.
That’s actually a very good idea mate. Now, if only I could think of a name for it when working men and women stick together…
btw…when I first started driving 10ish years ago I was filling up my car at a petrol station on the way home. I had company uniform on at the time…was approached by some union guy trying to get me to join. Prob a bit unreasonalble but had an instant dislike for unions after that
UKtramp:
robroy:
Ok after looking at your very dark picture, what’s the alternative?
So what do we do eh?..
Just carry on letting things decline in the path it has been taking for the last 10 to 15 years.
Bend over cheeks parted, ■■■■ up all the crap, the zero hours jobs, the crap overtime rates, the ridiculously long hours we have to work to not make a good wage but a wage to live on.
The types of firms which are a bloody good reason for some kind of united front, the unscrupulous firms, and the up their own arse type firms, such as the likes of The Green Death (which you know more about than me btw) will just love that eh?Unfortunately rob the dark picture that I paint is reality, there is little hope of it ever recovering from the depths it has sank, the drivers you see now will see to that along with the Eastern European drivers who are benefiting way above what we are and why they will come in their 1000s. In order to sort this mess out the answer is very simple, not unlike most drivers today. The reason why some jobs such as refrigeration men earn and live so well is not down to unions, not down to high skills although that does play a part. It has to do with what people will tolerate, unfortunately drivers today will tolerate long hours, low wages and accept bad conditions. Imagine if they would not accept these terms and conditions, who would drive the trucks? Unfortunately rob today’s drivers have no fight in them, they have no sense or pride, the ones that have are the ones who benefit. How do you think some drivers get better treat than others. I have the answer and I have the fight, start a real drivers union from drivers been in charge of that union and members who would stick by their fellow driver, I could turn this industry around very easily but who would stand with me? No one as they all believe this is just how it is and accept it. Your union as you know it will do nothing to better this industry, only you can.
Dozy 2 what planet do you live on, now you could sort out the whole job
Listen Walter this job has always been like this and will never change
Sure aint we getting out of Europe so we can send all the eastern Europeans home and then you will have something to work with
And please tell me dozy 2 how does a refrigeration driver earn more than a normal driver
I think your fantasy mind is gone into overdrive by the way that use to be a select gear going back a few years but I’d say you could write a book on that
Still no take up on your help fund I’m afraid
nightline:
this job has always been like this and will never change
No it certainly has not ALWAYS been like this mate,… that depends how long you have done it. 
You’re maybe right, it probably won’t change, but in theory if everybody had the right mindset to get off their pathetic spineless arses, and stop just readily accepting unfair and unjust crap with no resistance to it, it could change tomorrow.
UKt is right in one way, the only alternative is a look after no.1 approach, and make things as bearable and/or good for yourself personally as you can,.and at the same time look in contempt at the rest running around like demented idiots being pushed.
UKtramp:
the maoster:
Well we may never speak as one on this matter my friend but I can honestly say that I understand and respect your viewpoint on this at least.maoster I am a working man myself, I have got men who work for me now with my refrigeration business. Do they feel they need a union, no definitely not as they can speak to me anytime and often do, my door is always open for anyone with a gripe. If they are unhappy with something, then I look at how I can do anything to put a smile on their face. My eldest son runs my business now and he is a bit harder in his stance than perhaps I am, anyone has a problem with him, I will pull him up over it, I know how people work and what I can get away with, some companies don’t. A union as I say can do some good in some companies, but all they are is a mediator between the men and the management. They are no more than a middle man but they can do some good for some companies that would otherwise take the ■■■■ without them. If more working men and women could simply come together and stand by each other then they could work magic. Look at how everyone is on here and look at how great this site could be if only people were standing by each other instead of wanting to tear each other to shreds or grass up their work mates. Solidarity works well and can do wonderful things.
I presume you run a relatively small firm though. How do you react when your employers (“customers”) impose unreasonable demands? Or when another firm steps in to undercut your firm’s wages? Unions are capable of responding to that - your single-handed benevolence is not.
You’re looking at a union as purely something that governs a single workplace, rather than potentially the entire marketplace.
Rjan:
I presume you run a relatively small firm though. How do you react when your employers (“customers”) impose unreasonable demands? Or when another firm steps in to undercut your firm’s wages? Unions are capable of responding to that - your single-handed benevolence is not.You’re looking at a union as purely something that governs a single workplace, rather than potentially the entire marketplace.
Rjan, my business is now small in respect to numbers of staff, we have to deal with very large companies though, in order to compete with the larger refrigeration companies it is not necessary to price war, I do not have the high overheads of the larger refrigeration companies but my prices are not reflecting this. There are other advantages to my company versus the large nationals. any employers or customers that make unreasonable demands are debated and meetings are arranged in order to fix the issues. Too many variables here to obviously discuss outcomes and grievances. My experience of Unions to which I am talking about is from when I myself worked for the large scale companies in management and not from my business prospectus. Unions have no place in a small business like mine for two good reasons. Firstly the unions are not interested in acting on behalf of a few employees, they do not make money from doing this as their subs would not make it viable. Secondly I sort out my own problems with my own employees in a fair and reasonable manner. Unions are not needed for these reasons. In the large scale companies they are needed as employment lawyers in all reality. The powers of unions was diluted many years ago and very few employers fear them nowadays. The solidarity of workers is also diluted to the stage of a handful of good men. Unions only work on the workers loyalty and solidarity. The workers think they have a union backing them up but the unions need the men to back them up, this is where the unions make decisions, have they got the backing of the men, will some break ranks and ignore the union stance therefore weakening the unions position. There are some good union companies but that is because the workforce are 100% behind the unions.
UKtramp:
The powers of unions was diluted many years ago and very few employers fear them nowadays. The solidarity of workers is also diluted to the stage of a handful of good men. Unions only work on the workers loyalty and solidarity.
^
It’s ironic that the workers’ reaction to that fact is to say that they don’t want to go back to the so called ‘bad’ old ‘militant’ days of the 1970’s like turkeys voting for Christmas.Also bearing in mind that so called ‘militancy’ is only a necessary reaction to our corrupted race to the bottom anti Keynesian economic system.When strong unions,helping to create an environment of high employment,high wages and decent leisure time,is actually just as much in the interests of the employers in creating an environment of strong consumer demand.Which then just leaves the question of making sure that demand is channeled into domestic industrial growth and not imports.Which in reality all means that there’s nothing for employers to ‘fear’ with such a change in outlook and everything to gain,if only they’d realise it.
UKtramp:
Rjan:
I presume you run a relatively small firm though. How do you react when your employers (“customers”) impose unreasonable demands? Or when another firm steps in to undercut your firm’s wages? Unions are capable of responding to that - your single-handed benevolence is not.You’re looking at a union as purely something that governs a single workplace, rather than potentially the entire marketplace.
Rjan, my business is now small in respect to numbers of staff, we have to deal with very large companies though, in order to compete with the larger refrigeration companies it is not necessary to price war, I do not have the high overheads of the larger refrigeration companies but my prices are not reflecting this. There are other advantages to my company versus the large nationals. any employers or customers that make unreasonable demands are debated and meetings are arranged in order to fix the issues. Too many variables here to obviously discuss outcomes and grievances. My experience of Unions to which I am talking about is from when I myself worked for the large scale companies in management and not from my business prospectus. Unions have no place in a small business like mine for two good reasons. Firstly the unions are not interested in acting on behalf of a few employees, they do not make money from doing this as their subs would not make it viable. Secondly I sort out my own problems with my own employees in a fair and reasonable manner. Unions are not needed for these reasons. In the large scale companies they are needed as employment lawyers in all reality. The powers of unions was diluted many years ago and very few employers fear them nowadays. The solidarity of workers is also diluted to the stage of a handful of good men. Unions only work on the workers loyalty and solidarity. The workers think they have a union backing them up but the unions need the men to back them up, this is where the unions make decisions, have they got the backing of the men, will some break ranks and ignore the union stance therefore weakening the unions position. There are some good union companies but that is because the workforce are 100% behind the unions.
I certainly see all your points. I agree a union bureaucracy is rarely necessary for handling matters within in a small firm - just as management bureaucracy is not necessary.
The point is what happens when your customers say your employees’ pension plan is too expensive, and they want to you cut it (or be undercut by another firm which has)?
That’s a situation that arises because of the decisions of your employers, and the only way to prevent your employers yoking you into competition with other small firms and other workers who are in the same business as yours, is through collective action and a common policy toward the employers above you.
In reality, your firm probably doesn’t have a pension plan, or certainly not a generous one like a final salary scheme - so your employers can’t undermine, and your competitors can’t undercut, what you already don’t have.
But once upon a time a larger number of workers than today did have access to decent pensions, and that was achieved in part by the power of organised labour to organise the marketplace and ensure that companies had to charge, and pay for, workers with pensions, and to cause ructions for anyone who tried to undercut them.
Rjan:
How do you react when your employers (“customers”) impose unreasonable demands? Or when another firm steps in to undercut your firm’s wages?
At which point that shows the contradiction and catch 22 in unions supposedly not needing to be a political force.When all of the issues which make them needed could be sorted out by the government intervening in the ‘free market’.By firstly imposing the required wage levels on employers and then making sure that it sticks by protecting the market against foreign competition.Labour having time and again shown that it isn’t up to that job and the workers voting like turkeys for Christmas in the form of more of the same.
Rjan you make a very good example of the pension scenario and no doubt one which may affect fair competition, the reality of customers dictating businesses to cut pension contributions in order to cut costs is not really something I have ever witnessed. If the price is too high then it is down to the tendering company to see if they can sharpen their pencils or lose that customer to a competitor who may want to buy their business. Sometimes the highest price can be rolled up with better products, better value etc, therefore the way I deal with tenders is to look at exactly what it is that the customer wants a price for, is it a bare bones service offering little in value other than price or do they want the bells and whistle type service but cannot stretch their budget to that service, then that is the time for negotiation and compromise. However by negotiating a better deal for the customer they have to realise there will be deviations and alterations to the tender to reflect the lower price. Unions can do little in aiding this normal process, fair competition bribery & corruption laws/ policies are a very real issue and difficult to police and prove as the majority of these hand out deals are normally practiced outside of the business in a very underhand way. A customer asking another company to ■■■■■ the pension of their workers away from their own workers would be looked upon very sternly by an employment lawyer. Even giving out a gift nowadays as a thank you for their business over the past 12 months has to be done in the open and with the higher managers / directors knowledge.
UKtramp:
Rjan you make a very good example of the pension scenario and no doubt one which may affect fair competition, the reality of customers dictating businesses to cut pension contributions in order to cut costs is not really something I have ever witnessed.
It happens all the time nowadays when large, established companies say they “can’t afford” pensions anymore!
I agree powerful employers rarely tell subsidiary employers directly to ditch their pension plans, because it would be incendiary to actually articulate such a demand. In many cases they might not even turn their minds specifically to what attack the subsidiary employer should make on the workforce. What the employer does is just accept the lower bid from the subsidiary employer who doesn’t have a pension plan, and carry on accepting the lower bid either until the subsidiary with pensions abolish them to become “more competitive”, or until the subsidiary with the pension plan goes bankrupt for lack of custom (with only the competitor who didn’t have a pension plan, left alive in the marketplace).
And pensions is just one example anyway. It can be any aspect of pay or conditions - overtime rates, redundancy money, sick pay, paid holidays, subsidised canteens, the number of desks and seats in a single room, the location and quantity of workplaces (and the distance workers have to commute out of their own pockets), the speed of a production line, the safety of the equipment and working practices, or even just the security of the employment itself (i.e. temporary or “gig” jobs instead of permanent, indefinite, employment).
If the price is too high then it is down to the tendering company to see if they can sharpen their pencils or lose that customer to a competitor who may want to buy their business. Sometimes the highest price can be rolled up with better products, better value etc, therefore the way I deal with tenders is to look at exactly what it is that the customer wants a price for, is it a bare bones service offering little in value other than price or do they want the bells and whistle type service but cannot stretch their budget to that service, then that is the time for negotiation and compromise. However by negotiating a better deal for the customer they have to realise there will be deviations and alterations to the tender to reflect the lower price. Unions can do little in aiding this normal process, fair competition bribery & corruption laws/ policies are a very real issue and difficult to police and prove as the majority of these hand out deals are normally practiced outside of the business in a very underhand way. A customer asking another company to ■■■■■ the pension of their workers away from their own workers would be looked upon very sternly by an employment lawyer. Even giving out a gift nowadays as a thank you for their business over the past 12 months has to be done in the open and with the higher managers / directors knowledge.
As I say, you’re putting too much emphasis on what is explicitly said. Employers don’t need to say “cut your pension plan”, “cut your overtime”, or “cut your workers’ hourly rates” - they just say “your bid wasn’t the lowest”, and they keep on saying that until you as a businessman get the message and cut something (or, if you resist, until you get bankrupted). On the rearguard, they use political influence to ramp up unemployment and economic insecurity (including things like cutting dole money), so that there are workers available and willing to be drafted into shiny, new, competitors firms doing the same thing that existing firms already do, but with inferior pay and conditions to the firms being attacked.
I mean you don’t have to look far for examples - look at how the pay and conditions on petrol contracts have dwindled together with the proliferation of subcontractors and white fleets and all the rest of it in contrast to each oil company directly employing its drivers like in the past. You don’t really think it was all about “efficiency savings” do you, as opposed to naked attacks on pensions, wages, and the unionisation which underpinned them?
When drivers all worked for one firm, they saw their common interests more easily, whereas now because their bosses claim to have independent businesses (even though they’re all filling much same petrol station tanks and fuel bunkers as 25 years ago), workers compete their own wages into the mud - even cheer when their company wins a new contract, when all it means is that their wages are the lowest in the market, and somewhere in the marketplace a company which was offering better wages to drivers just shrank in size or went out of business.
Completely with you on all counts, a big problem in transport now is the workforce and their mentality. As you say they will even cheer at the winning of yet another contract that will either drive down their wages or at best hold it in the lowest rate it has been for years. And here lies the major problem, as I have already stated that the drivers are fools to themselves and are only too willing to lay down, roll over and simply accept that their job is what it is. The mentality of “what can I do about it” is evident in the majority of drivers, others turn to union membership as their savior and the union will somehow save the day or god help us. Whilst the management spread fear among its workforce this only enforces this mentality. It is a vicious circle and the only clear winners are the directors of the dominant large haulier along with their shareholders. Every one else can suffer or get rid and get the next fool in. Unions are benefiting from this mentality along with the hauliers, any victory is seen by the workforce as we have got something better than joe bloggs down the road, this then strengthens the case for union membership and in everyone’s eyes they can do no wrong, people are weak and a weak workforce is set to be abused, a union may stop them from being abused to the point of cracking only. this industry has seen it’s best days and the race to the bottom is well underway. Your average driver is on less money than most jobs you can think of, the only way you can look at the wages as good is if you close your eyes and ignore the hideous working hours which are required to earn that wage. Another drivers downfall is to look at the bottom line and not divide his working hours in order to achieve this figure.
Carryfast:
Rjan:
How do you react when your employers (“customers”) impose unreasonable demands? Or when another firm steps in to undercut your firm’s wages?At which point that shows the contradiction and catch 22 in unions supposedly not needing to be a political force.When all of the issues which make them needed could be sorted out by the government intervening in the ‘free market’.By firstly imposing the required wage levels on employers and then making sure that it sticks by protecting the market against foreign competition.Labour having time and again shown that it isn’t up to that job and the workers voting like turkeys for Christmas in the form of more of the same.
Without any shadow of a doubt, you are correct in my eyes. Unions are no better for industry than Agencies are for driving.
I’m bored. Dozy was kind of entertaining, because despite his obvious troll like attitude, he had an originality. Now though, the site has been flooded with a bunch of characters so similar in operation, that it has become tiresome to wade through it when one logs back on…
That is all.
the nodding donkey:
I’m bored. Dozy was kind of entertaining, because despite his obvious troll like attitude, he had an originality. Now though, the site has been flooded with a bunch of characters so similar in operation, that it has become tiresome to wade through it when one logs back on…That is all.
Completely agree, but then you have to have a sense of humor to begin with to see the entertainment side of things. Otherwise the entertainment turns into hatred by certain types. You can’t have it both ways can you now. You was entertaining at one point donkey, why the change?
U R T U Each and Every Time. Disabled HGV Driver ? I’ve never seen on of those ! ! URTU is for Truck Drivers.
onesock:
U R T U Each and Every Time. Disabled HGV Driver ? I’ve never seen on of those ! ! URTU is for Truck Drivers.
May be he had an accident at work as a HGV Driver and is the planner now…
good to see donkey clapped down smack face in hand and no boring pics “familiy. war… snooze”
Ask UKtramp
