Beetlejuice:
We must be rid of the gravy train house of losers .petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209433
Please sign .
Good idea when “my” party is in power. Bad idea when another party is in power.
On the whole its better to have a 2nd chamber to slow down the more extreme policies of any particular government. The current House Of Lords isnt perfect but its better than having none. I wont be signing.
Franglais:
Beetlejuice:
We must be rid of the gravy train house of losers .petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209433
Please sign .
I won`t be signing.
oh noo 
It’s complete bollox now ,Anyone who has a few million can buy into it .A remaniacs last hope
Or is that the border in Ireland 
Bearing in mind that this issue of Brexit has us divided not over traditional Party Lines - I still have yet to hear any arguments for “Why are so many keen to Remain” other than “Fear of Change”, or “Afraid of Losing Rights” or even “Afraid of losing job/prospects/other”.
Surely by this point 23 months on - we must realize that the sky didn’t fall on our head in those past 23 months, nor will it likely do so in the future…?
This notion that there is such a thing as a “Bregretter” makes the assumption that a significant number of the 52% “only voted Leave for a bit of a joke”. Cameron implored the public “not to make this about giving the Tories a bloody nose” a year into his fresh majority government. I don’t think he even wanted to be PM looking at the eagerness, and skip in his step he had when resigning…
I would conclude that the Remainers are confident that they can dig deep into the pile of those people that didn’t vote at all in the referendum, plus those immigrants that have come here since, let alone were here beforehand, and didn’t vote. Well, good luck on that! If it were possible to motivate people in that kind of way, then we would have seen turnout up into the 80%s at last year’s election since. It didn’t happen (I had a losing bet on this, indeed) which would suggest that the apathetic percentage of the population over Brexit and General Elections - is as constant as the northern star! 
What of that same group of disaffected people that didn’t vote though? What if there was some campaign among the apathetic that “Leave needs a surge further, because our govenrment won’t implement what amounts to a short-head victory otherwise”…? Perhaps such a notion is doomed to fail as well, because we are so risk-adverse as a population these days.
Once again, I’ll ask the questions of Remainers: “What did you think you’d lose” or “Why do you believe that a UK outside of EU control would be a bad thing”?
We’re not going to be losing any “human rights” - that was never on the cards.
We are not going to collapse economically - That implies we were making a boatload of money out of being in the EU, when the exact opposite is, was, and will continue to be the case.
House price collapse, Interest rate spike, Runaway inflation, NHS deprived of staff - well, if that was going to ever happen - doesn’t anyone think that it should have happened already by this point?
I believe there is a case of motivating those who didn’t vote - to come out and support a “Get on with it” campaign, rather than “try to turn it over” or “try to force it past the Eurocrats” approach.
I believe that we only have a finite amount of time to get Brexit done and dusted, once and for all. The EU think that time is on their side, but the two world wars fought in their name last century - might have a different notion of what is, what might be, and what must be.
It’s one thing for the EU to screw as much money as possible out of the British People, but when it comes to “unwanted wars against third parties” - What then?
Imagine being called to arms to "We must send a peacekeeping force into East Ukraine to take it back for our friends in Kiev from their former Russian Masters. Many of you will die, - but it’s for a good cause! Sign up today!"
Even Leftists that support the notion of Remain - might find that kind of scerario put upon them hard to swallow eh?
Oh no. You can’t say "I’m a pacifist Leftist, I ain’t fighting in no war." If you want allegiance to the EU, which is what you want when you say “I’m a ■■■■■■■■ Remainer”, then Yes Bud. That’s the price you will have to ultimately pay. Drafted. Called up. Draft dodgers lose their benefits.
Of course, champagne socialists don’t have anything at all to worry about. It’s just the ordinary folk that are expected to bleed and die, but this time - for a cause that is not just “not theirs”, but a cause that we’re not even on the correct side of history on!
Winseer:
Bearing in mind that this issue of Brexit has us divided not over traditional Party Lines - I still have yet to hear any arguments for “Why are so many keen to Remain” other than “Fear of Change”, or “Afraid of Losing Rights” or even “Afraid of losing job/prospects/other”.Surely by this point 23 months on - we must realize that the sky didn’t fall on our head in those past 23 months, nor will it likely do so in the future…?
This notion that there is such a thing as a “Bregretter” makes the assumption that a significant number of the 52% “only voted Leave for a bit of a joke”. Cameron implored the public “not to make this about giving the Tories a bloody nose” a year into his fresh majority government. I don’t think he even wanted to be PM looking at the eagerness, and skip in his step he had when resigning…
I would conclude that the Remainers are confident that they can dig deep into the pile of those people that didn’t vote at all in the referendum, plus those immigrants that have come here since, let alone were here beforehand, and didn’t vote. Well, good luck on that! If it were possible to motivate people in that kind of way, then we would have seen turnout up into the 80%s at last year’s election since. It didn’t happen (I had a losing bet on this, indeed) which would suggest that the apathetic percentage of the population over Brexit and General Elections - is as constant as the northern star!
What of that same group of disaffected people that didn’t vote though? What if there was some campaign among the apathetic that “Leave needs a surge further, because our govenrment won’t implement what amounts to a short-head victory otherwise”…? Perhaps such a notion is doomed to fail as well, because we are so risk-adverse as a population these days.
Once again, I’ll ask the questions of Remainers: “What did you think you’d lose” or “Why do you believe that a UK outside of EU control would be a bad thing”?
We’re not going to be losing any “human rights” - that was never on the cards.
We are not going to collapse economically - That implies we were making a boatload of money out of being in the EU, when the exact opposite is, was, and will continue to be the case.
House price collapse, Interest rate spike, Runaway inflation, NHS deprived of staff - well, if that was going to ever happen - doesn’t anyone think that it should have happened already by this point?I believe there is a case of motivating those who didn’t vote - to come out and support a “Get on with it” campaign, rather than “try to turn it over” or “try to force it past the Eurocrats” approach.
I believe that we only have a finite amount of time to get Brexit done and dusted, once and for all. The EU think that time is on their side, but the two world wars fought in their name last century - might have a different notion of what is, what might be, and what must be.It’s one thing for the EU to screw as much money as possible out of the British People, but when it comes to “unwanted wars against third parties” - What then?
Imagine being called to arms to "We must send a peacekeeping force into East Ukraine to take it back for our friends in Kiev from their former Russian Masters. Many of you will die, - but it’s for a good cause! Sign up today!"Even Leftists that support the notion of Remain - might find that kind of scerario put upon them hard to swallow eh?
Oh no. You can’t say "I’m a pacifist Leftist, I ain’t fighting in no war." If you want allegiance to the EU, which is what you want when you say “I’m a ■■■■■■■■ Remainer”, then Yes Bud. That’s the price you will have to ultimately pay. Drafted. Called up. Draft dodgers lose their benefits.Of course, champagne socialists don’t have anything at all to worry about. It’s just the ordinary folk that are expected to bleed and die, but this time - for a cause that is not just “not theirs”, but a cause that we’re not even on the correct side of history on!
The clue is that the idea of a ‘regretful’ leave voter is an oxymoron which only a remainer could make up.IE a remainer pretending to be a regretful leaver as part of their desperate ongoing plan to de rail Brexit.Added to by remainers trying to infiltrate the leave side as an insurance policy to ensure remain in all but name.Not that they need to worry with Globalists May and Hammond on their side and make no mistake the EU is an anti nation state Globalist institution based on similar lines as those used to justify the Soviet Union and China’s takeover of Tibet.
Winseer:
Bearing in mind that this issue of Brexit has us divided not over traditional Party Lines - I still have yet to hear any arguments for “Why are so many keen to Remain” other than “Fear of Change”, or “Afraid of Losing Rights” or even “Afraid of losing job/prospects/other”.
I for one am afraid that we as a Nation will price ourselves out of our nearest and biggest market. I am afraid that our Government will settle for “no deal” or a very “bad deal”. And I think that to be afraid of these possible is a rational response. Far better than being unafraid in uncertain times. You use afraid as an insult.
Anyone careering down hill in avehicle with no brakes who isn`t afraid would be a fool!
Winseer:
Surely by this point 23 months on -
Well, since we were in the EU 23 months ago, and we are in the EU today; since nothing has happened yet…
it doesn`t mean nothing will happen in the future.
Winseer:
I don’t think he even wanted to be PM looking at the eagerness, and skip in his step he had when resigning…
I agree there. One way and another he made a complete ■■■■ up of everything. Even promising the referendum was to try and stop the leakage of Tory votes to UKIP.
Winseer:
“What did you think you’d lose”
It aint past tense yet, mate! We havent left yet.
Winseer:
We are not going to collapse economically - That implies we were making a boatload of money out of being in the EU, when the exact opposite is, was, and will continue to be the case.
Your crystal ball must be clearer than mine, I dont know what the future holds. I hope we will do well outside theEU but am afraid its otherwise. However much money we were making as part of the EU the chances are, with increased duties and tariffs, we`ll make less outside. And any goods we sell inside the EU in the future, will have to conform to all their regulations and standards, as now. But in the future we will have no influence in making those standards.
Winseer:
NHS deprived of staff - well, if that was going to ever happen - doesn’t anyone think that it should have happened already by this point?
Well if you care to read the newspapers maybe youll see what is happening in the NHS currently. And its worth saying that the amount of tax we pay for our NHS is NOTHING to do with the EU. It is a home grown shambles. Tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the average and poorer paid is a NATIONAL disgrace not an EU one.
Beetlejuice:
Franglais:
Beetlejuice:
We must be rid of the gravy train house of losers .petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209433
Please sign .
I won`t be signing.
It’s complete bollox now ,Anyone who has a few million can buy into it .A remaniacs last hope
Or is that the border in Ireland
The border in Ireland IS a very interesting case.
It cant stop us leaving the EU. Not at all. It can stop us from reaching an agreement with the EU, about the new relationship well have with the EU.
It could mean a “crash out” rather than an orderly exit.
As Mrs May has said repeatedly, “Nothing is agreed, until everything is agreed”. With no agreement on the Irish border, well be on WTO rules wont we? That doesn`t look too good to me.
Franglais:
Your crystal ball must be clearer than mine, I dont know what the future holds. I hope we will do well outside theEU but am afraid its otherwise. However much money we were making as part of the EU the chances are, with increased duties and tariffs, we`ll make less outside. And any goods we sell inside the EU in the future, will have to conform to all their regulations and standards, as now. But in the future we will have no influence in making those standards.Winseer:
NHS deprived of staff - well, if that was going to ever happen - doesn’t anyone think that it should have happened already by this point?Well if you care to read the newspapers maybe you
ll see what is happening in the NHS currently. And its worth saying that the amount of tax we pay for our NHS is NOTHING to do with the EU. It is a home grown shambles. Tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the average and poorer paid is a NATIONAL disgrace not an EU one.
We already actually have a better more balanced trading relationship with the US than the EU.While we obviously don’t have nor need any ‘influence’ over the US conformity standards that such trade has to meet as part of that.So why the big thing about so called ‘influence’ when it’s obvious that our influence within the EU v the Commissioners and majority foreign vote is meaningless anyway.As for punishing us with trade sanctions for the crime of secession great we sell a few less than the already few Jaguars etc that we sell in the EU.But then we disproportionately tax and quota the zb out of German imports disproportionately in retaliation while also opening the door to more US imports and/or UK made US products thereby providing more incentive for even more UK/US trade.Which is a lot better than the deal we’ve got now in which our net importer status and net contributor status makes us nothing but a cash cow for the EU and being ruled by zb’s like Juncker and Tusk to make sure that the cash keeps going in for the privilege.As for the NHS budget it’s obvious that the NHS is suffering from a massive budget deficit as a result of all that lost cash.
However you already know that you’ve got remainers May and Hammond on your side running the show anyway who’ve got no intention of doing what’s best for the country.Which is why the remainers are able to get away with this continuous tirade of remainer bs,that the EU is supposedly good for us.When it’s anything but in being a foreign aid scam which bleeds us dry.In exchange for a few kickbacks for the importers of EU goods,employers wanting to maintain an over supplied labour market with low wage expectation labour,and politicians like Blair and his Conservative allies.
Franglais:
With no agreement on the Irish border, well be on WTO rules wont we? That doesn`t look too good to me.
WTO rules will be fine.You know the same rules that allow the US to stop China taking the ■■■■.Which we can use just the same in the case of the EU wanting to hit us with trade sanctions regarding the already pathetic exports they take from us anyway,relative to the amount we import from them.IE nothing in WTO rules that would stop us meeting EU trade sanctions made against us in kind.Which just leaves us needing a government prepared to do what’s best for the country and not Socialist idealism and/or its globalist Soros type master pulling its strings.
Winseer:
Bearing in mind that this issue of Brexit has us divided not over traditional Party Lines - I still have yet to hear any arguments for “Why are so many keen to Remain” other than “Fear of Change”, or “Afraid of Losing Rights” or even “Afraid of losing job/prospects/other”.
Nobody is afraid of change when it is significantly for the better. When did you see a person last promised a straightforward uplift in their rate of pay (without any change in pay structure), and they responded “no thankyou, I’d rather stay on the current rates to which I have become sentimentally accustomed”?
Whenever people are accused of “fear of change”, it is always by those who threaten changes for the worst, or want to rearrange the deckchairs of established practice.
Surely by this point 23 months on - we must realize that the sky didn’t fall on our head in those past 23 months, nor will it likely do so in the future…?
Because firstly, nothing has really happened yet, and to the extent that people are relaxing a bit, it’s only because the Tories’ narrative seems to have lost traction under the weight of it’s own contradictions and blatant malignancy.
The fishermen have been cut loose. The farmers have thought again, now that they realise that leaving the EU will mean the total loss of their subsidies (rather than the British government running its own scheme that mirrors that of the EU), and it will also mean low-road competition from the US (if the Tories get their way with free-trade deals) - so they’re clearly going to get fed through the mill.
The blue passports were an appeal to the chauvinistic element of the Brexiteers - until it was made clear that we can have blue passports even if we stay in, and the Tories went and handed the production contract to a French firm. A red, white, and blue Brexit indeed - British passports manufactured across the water under the French flag. And for half the price by French workers who, some captains of industry have said in the past, are the laziest and highest-paid industrial workers in the world (the reality being that they can afford to be lazy and high-paid, because their unions, industrial policies, and left-wing culture force bosses to invest capital in creating higher hourly productivity).
Then there is Liam Fox sailing the high seas in search of new trade deals - sternly rebuked by the Indian government, who told him to go away and come back when he was willing to offer free movement of workers with India, a proposal that if accepted would leave any working class Brexiteer blowing steam from their ears.
And we see the brutal reality of immigration policy. Not the “illegal immigrants” which exist in the public imagination being “sent back”, but British and commonwealth citizens seized by heavies in the middle of the night and packed off to Timbuktu, having spent 50 or 60 years paying their dues and participating in British life and community, and many more pushed to the edge of death and beyond by the fear and strain.
And then there is the blatant sleaze and dishonesty of the Tories personally, insisting on austerity for the working class whilst easily slamming £1bn on the table just to buy votes, and then for corporations and the wealthy cutting taxes which were already at historical lows. Not a week goes by without them being found to be lying, and blatantly so. The right-wing Murdoch press has lost trust with and influence over the public. People have woken up to the idea that they are being lied to all the time. Even staunch Tories like Andrew Neil, the wider Tory diaspora in public life, can’t stomach the lies.
And the Tories’ main prize of forging a neoliberal trade deal with the US (after the TTIP agreement with the EU foundered in the face of opposition and irreconcilable differences), was first ■■■-poohed by Obama, and has been even more fundamentally confounded since by the election of an American president who is widely loathed and himself determined to play economic hardball with all trading partners. And even the business community is not willing to forfeit relations with their main market (the EU) as the price of the mere hope value of trading elsewhere (hopes that, Liam Fox shows, were clearly not justified).
Then there is the Northern Ireland question. The natural solution for the right-wing political smashers would probably be to slough off NI and either return it to the Republic or create a devolved independent nation. But the Tories are in bed with the DUP whose very reason for being is to prevent such an occurrence, and too many Tories would take to the airwaves and seek to bring down the government at this suggestion, bearing in mind that most of the liberal media is now to the left of the Tories.
Then there is the EU negotiating strategy. The right-wing Brexiteers really seemed to think that the whole edifice was going to crash down if they poked it. In reality, the EU27 have united against their common enemy. They have made it clear there will be no undercutting, no driving down of taxes and regulations, otherwise they’ll slap tariffs on us. And they’ve made it clear that their institutions will still be the ones to adjudicate on mattes of citizen’s rights and compliance with EU law.
I’m already exhausted considering all these examples, and I can’t even bring myself to draw the key themes in them together - I suppose they stand adequately on their own.
The bottom line is, right-wing Brexit looks like it’s probably a busted flush so long as the current pressure against it is maintained, and the political wind is blowing left now that the Labour party offers that alternative - even business leaders are moving left, not just because of their own consciences and their own fears of more radical social and economic disruption (from both left and right), but because they’re sick of dysfunctional competition (particularly now that workers at the bottom are simply becoming too poor to bear any further attacks), sick of austerity (even mainstays of the professional classes like doctors, lawyers, teachers, senior civil servants, and so on are being attacked), sick of falling productivity, sick of slack growth, and their own thinkers and institutions (the LSE, the IMF, the billionaire philanthropists, etc.) are telling them that the state needs to be marshalled in order to do something about it.
So I’m quietly confident that the momentum of movement toward the abyss is being lost, and that if a Brexit is delivered, it’s not going to look anything like what the right-wingers wanted.
I would conclude that the Remainers are confident that they can dig deep into the pile of those people that didn’t vote at all in the referendum, plus those immigrants that have come here since, let alone were here beforehand, and didn’t vote.
Which immigrants - are you under the impression that anyone other than resident British citizens (and a tiny minority of ex-pats) were entitled to vote in the referendum?
And which people who didn’t vote? The turnout was extremely high by any modern standard, and most of those who didn’t vote were probably as likely to be latent Brexiteers as Remainers.
Once again, I’ll ask the questions of Remainers: “What did you think you’d lose” or “Why do you believe that a UK outside of EU control would be a bad thing”?
Most of us don’t perceive that we are under a great deal of EU control. Even bugbears for the left like competition laws, were not introduced without the consent of the UK - our centre-right governments, voted in by much the same electorate as voted for Brexit, favoured those policies.
And bugbears for some of the working class like immigration (and I concede the grievance is legitimate so far as it concerns work and wages), were not forced upon us by the EU - on the contrary, the EU had significant transitional controls available when the Eastern European members were admitted, which the Blair government (alone, amongst the entire rest of the EU) decided not to make use of. So we had control in the EU, and our elected government used that control to intentionally accept more migration than we had to.
And non-EU immigration is and always has been under our control - the Tories dishonestly promise to cut it, and then don’t because the implication will be to increase wages and improve conditions for people like cleaners, factory workers, and elderly care home carers, and the Tories are implacably opposed to wages going up like so.
We’re not going to be losing any “human rights” - that was never on the cards.
Don’t kid yourself. Scapegoating is one of the main tools in the armoury of far-right governments, to get the working class to accept attacks upon themselves and as a way of deflecting and blowing off their anger which would otherwise be directed at those responsible in government. That’s why the Tories hate it, and why the Murdoch press attacks it relentlessly.
It’s like health and safety. The easiest way for tin-pot small businessmen to set up on a shoestring and undercut reputable firms who do things safely and reliably and invest in proper tools and procedures, or for stroppy managers even in large firms to avoid increasing budgets and making investments, is to force your own workers (or the general public) into taking risks with life and limb, and then throw the broken bodies on the streets when workers are injured or killed as a result (leaving the state to clean up the mess of families deprived of mothers and fathers who are wage-earners, or taking care of people who need intensive care and support for the rest of their lives). That’s why bosses always rail against such “red tape”.
We are not going to collapse economically - That implies we were making a boatload of money out of being in the EU, when the exact opposite is, was, and will continue to be the case.
The exact opposite is not the case. The EU is one of the main markets that provides scale for our industry. The economy would undoubtedly collapse if EU trade disappeared altogether, but of course even if we returned to WTO terms, it would only cause an economic penalty, not an economic collapse.
You should discard this idea that the EU is bleeding us white. It isn’t. We are one of the richest nations on the globe - in the top 10 by any measure, and in the top 5 by some measures. Our roads are not full of potholes and our hospital corridors lined with stretchers because of the EU, but because we are not paying enough tax as a nation, and because we keep electing national governments who are quite open about their intention to attack public services and infrastructure - “austerity” and “efficiency savings”, they call it. If you don’t want it, stop voting for parties that promise it.
House price collapse, Interest rate spike, Runaway inflation, NHS deprived of staff - well, if that was going to ever happen - doesn’t anyone think that it should have happened already by this point?
I don’t expect those things (to any degree that would be considered a crisis beyond control), but even if they were going to happen, they would not have happened yet because nothing has been done yet on Brexit.
It’s one thing for the EU to screw as much money as possible out of the British People, but when it comes to “unwanted wars against third parties” - What then?
Imagine being called to arms to "We must send a peacekeeping force into East Ukraine to take it back for our friends in Kiev from their former Russian Masters. Many of you will die, - but it’s for a good cause! Sign up today!"Even Leftists that support the notion of Remain - might find that kind of scerario put upon them hard to swallow eh?
Oh no. You can’t say "I’m a pacifist Leftist, I ain’t fighting in no war." If you want allegiance to the EU, which is what you want when you say “I’m a ■■■■■■■■ Remainer”, then Yes Bud. That’s the price you will have to ultimately pay. Drafted. Called up. Draft dodgers lose their benefits.Of course, champagne socialists don’t have anything at all to worry about. It’s just the ordinary folk that are expected to bleed and die, but this time - for a cause that is not just “not theirs”, but a cause that we’re not even on the correct side of history on!
But the British have had one of the most belligerent foreign policies in the EU! The French asked for evidence on Skripal, while the Tories lied to the public about the evidence they had. It wasn’t Germany that forced us into Iraq or Afghanistan. I’m not saying other nations are invariably less belligerent than the UK, but it’s false to characterise them as more belligerent than our own government has been. When did the Germans last get a bloody nose in a foreign campaign? When did the French? When did Sweden? When did Italy? In general they have only had any involvement whatsoever in campaigns driven by the UK and the US.
Rjan:
Winseer:
Of course, champagne socialists don’t have anything at all to worry about. It’s just the ordinary folk that are expected to bleed and die, but this time - for a cause that is not just “not theirs”, but a cause that we’re not even on the correct side of history on!But the British have had one of the most belligerent foreign policies in the EU! The French asked for evidence on Skripal, while the Tories lied to the public about the evidence they had. It wasn’t Germany that forced us into Iraq or Afghanistan. I’m not saying other nations are invariably less belligerent than the UK, but it’s false to characterise them as more belligerent than our own government has been. When did the Germans last get a bloody nose in a foreign campaign? When did the French? When did Sweden? When did Italy? In general they have only had any involvement whatsoever in campaigns driven by the UK and the US.
It’s clear that PESCO run by people like Blair and Macron doesn’t fit the simplistic localised Tory v Labour stereotype nor the description of any less Belligerent in its reason for existence than NATO.Bearing in mind that for all his faults either way Heath didn’t join Australia in the Vietnam war.But Germany has shown itself more than keen to get involved with Sabre rattling on Russia’s border and the Afghanistan wild goose chase.While Macron has more than made up for any possible scepticism regarding the Salisbury case with his all too predictable actions regarding the Syria issue.
While history shows that a Federal army is more about keeping its own states in line than involvement in foreign wars.On that note check out the level of American casualties in the American war of secession and Federal aggression v all the casualties of WW1/2 and Vietnam wars combined.Bearing in mind the difference in modern weapons technology v that of 1861-5.
Carryfast:
We already actually have a better more balanced trading relationship with the US than the EU.While we obviously don’t have nor need any ‘influence’ over the US conformity standards that such trade has to meet as part of that.So why the big thing about so called ‘influence’ when it’s obvious that our influence within the EU v the Commissioners and majority foreign vote is meaningless anyway.
Note that we are net importers of foods. Foods are not generally thought to be an option. Jaguars are. In a trade war, as Ive already suggested we AND everyone would loose. They would loose their lovely Jags.... As a small State how would we fair in future deals with the US? Probably worse than as a larger economy within the EU? OK, Trump wont be there forever, but who will be the next US Pres? As an isolated economy wed be out in the cold. Why dont we have a good balance of payments? It isn`t because of a dastardly plan by the EU. It is because our manufacturing industry has been run down by under investment. Tax breaks are going in share bonuses today, rather than in investing in future profits for tomorrow. All due to our National Govs choices.
Carryfast:
As for punishing us with trade sanctions for the crime of secession great we sell a few less than the already few Jaguars etc that we sell in the EU.But then we disproportionately tax and quota the zb out of German imports disproportionately in retaliation while also opening the door to more US imports and/or UK made US products thereby providing more incentive for even more UK/US trade.
Its not trade sanctions were talking about, its the WTO. We signed up to it years ago... Never thought it would to bite us like it soon may however. And again youre talking about trade with the US. A big economy for us to deal with. Not a comparable economy to us, such as Germany, France etc. I can`t see “America Great Again” Trump, or any successor giving us a better deal than we already have. And any deal, even a brilliant one, will surely take many years to thrash out?
Carryfast:
Which is a lot better than the deal we’ve got now in which our net importer status
As I said we arent a net importer through choice. We arent making goods at the right price what people want to buy. We can export more of course: drop our prices. Well you may want that in the “more competitive Britain” we hear of, personally I don`t fancy a pay cut.
Carryfast:
As for the NHS budget it’s obvious that the NHS is suffering from a massive budget deficit as a result of all that lost cash.
It is a National Governments responsibility to collect and spend monies on health provision. Our successive govs have failed miserably. That some of them try and point the finger of blame at the EU is ludicrous, when other EU countries are doing OK. That any thinking person would actually believe their spin is amazing.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
We already actually have a better more balanced trading relationship with the US than the EU.While we obviously don’t have nor need any ‘influence’ over the US conformity standards that such trade has to meet as part of that.So why the big thing about so called ‘influence’ when it’s obvious that our influence within the EU v the Commissioners and majority foreign vote is meaningless anyway.Note that we are net importers of foods. Foods are not generally thought to be an option. Jaguars are. In a trade war, as I
ve already suggested we AND everyone would loose. They would loose their lovely Jags.... As a small State how would we fair in future deals with the US? Probably worse than as a larger economy within the EU? OK, Trump wont be there forever, but who will be the next US Pres? As an isolated economy wed be out in the cold. Why dont we have a good balance of payments? It isn`t because of a dastardly plan by the EU. It is because our manufacturing industry has been run down by under investment. Tax breaks are going in share bonuses today, rather than in investing in future profits for tomorrow. All due to our National Govs choices.Carryfast:
As for punishing us with trade sanctions for the crime of secession great we sell a few less than the already few Jaguars etc that we sell in the EU.But then we disproportionately tax and quota the zb out of German imports disproportionately in retaliation while also opening the door to more US imports and/or UK made US products thereby providing more incentive for even more UK/US trade.It
s not trade sanctions were talking about, its the WTO. We signed up to it years ago... Never thought it would to bite us like it soon may however. And again youre talking about trade with the US. A big economy for us to deal with. Not a comparable economy to us, such as Germany, France etc. I can`t see “America Great Again” Trump, or any successor giving us a better deal than we already have. And any deal, even a brilliant one, will surely take many years to thrash out?Carryfast:
Which is a lot better than the deal we’ve got now in which our net importer statusAs I said we aren
t a net importer through choice. We arent making goods at the right price what people want to buy. We can export more of course: drop our prices. Well you may want that in the “more competitive Britain” we hear of, personally I don`t fancy a pay cut.Carryfast:
As for the NHS budget it’s obvious that the NHS is suffering from a massive budget deficit as a result of all that lost cash.It is a National Governments responsibility to collect and spend monies on health provision. Our successive govs have failed miserably. That some of them try and point the finger of blame at the EU is ludicrous, when other EU countries are doing OK. That any thinking person would actually believe their spin is amazing.
Firstly the only real thing that I’d miss would be Spanish oranges and French Wine.Just about everything else I buy is British origin meat and vegetables and fish and dairy produce and other non EU imports like US and New Zealand and South African fruit and New Zealand lamb when it’s their season for it and Brit when it’s ours.Also bearing in mind Brit farmers rightly moaning that they want an even bigger share of the domestic market and protection from dumped foreign imports that we don’t need.
Does this sound like Brits can’t feed ourselves and are dependent on the EU to bleedin feed us.IE why would the EU need to impose rules on us that we can’t promote the consumption of British origin produce in that case.
lovebritishfood.co.uk/britis … e-achieved
lovebritishfood.co.uk/britis … sh-farming
So you can forget the bs EU food dependency issue.Also why would we want to be ‘friends’ with a vindictive bunch of muppets who would like to think that they can starve us into submission because we don’t want to be a part of their stinking Napoleonic style fiefdom and Federal dictatorship.
As for the bs that we aren’t producing stuff that they want to buy great that doesn’t exactly fit the script that we need their market nor open ours to them does it.While they certainly need ours more than we need theirs especially Germany.On that note how does replacing Mercs and BMW’s with Jaguars in the domestic market,by hitting the Germans at least as much as they decide to hit us,for example,fit the script of low paid Brit workers and less jobs ?.While if you’re so worried about everyone loses in a trade war then why is it the EU that wants to start it for the crime of secession not us.
Let alone the question how did we ever survive for all those years that we weren’t an EU member as opposed to the less than 50 years that we’ve been one.Bearing in mind that we’ve lost more by allowing the EU open access to our domestic market than we’ve ever gained in exports to them.Other than of course our oil which they were/are only too keen to get their grubby corrupt Federalist hands on in exchange for worthless cash adding to the money supply and with it inflation and used to buy more foreign imports that we can make for ourselves thereby adding to our trade deficit and with it our resulting debt mountain.
Also you do know that we had all the arguments before the referendum and remain lost.It’s now time for the government to realise it and give us what we voted for in the form of leave means leave not remain.
Rules rules… F— the rules!
Leaving the EU is against the Rules, and against EU law.
That means the only way we can ever achieve Brexit is to break the rules, and break EU laws.
Now we could have ceased payments to Brussels on the day after the referendum result - and then, payments ceased - we would have been in a far better position to negotiate any “customs union” or “access to single market” stuff. Because we continued to pay the money over though, be it £350m per week or any other amount (it’s still money we net pay to Brussels) - the EU can drag their feet, knowing that every week wasted on negotiations - tops up their coffers with our hard-earned nicely. 
“Doing Nothing” makes them richer by the week. “Stalling” also. “Blocking” and “kicking stuff down the road” has become a rather lucrative moneyspinner!
If we’d ceased the payments - that would have been considered a “Default” by the EU and ECB.
The ECB would confiscate all UK monies on deposit there (£9bn?) and the ECB would refuse to lend the UK further money via it’s bond-buying programme.
There are plenty of other nations on this planet that would snap up our 2% paper though - and that’s assuming we’d actually need to keep on borrowing via the bond market each and every month, as part of this (in my mind) totally unnecessary Public Sector Borrowing Requirement, which of course represents living beyond our means. It was clearly always considered unthinkable for the corridors of power that perhaps Austerity should flow to the very top of the civil services. Why can’t the Judiciary, Whitehall, Inland Revenue etc get massive pay cuts imposed upon them?
Even better… Make those pay cuts “Temporary, until Brexit is completed”. THAT’ll motivate them to get done what needs to be done!
With an extra £350m or whatever no longer being sent to Brussels, and the ECB not buying up our bonds any more - There is a risk of interest rate hikes, of course. Is that something to be feared? I’m someone with no savings to speak of, and a big mortgage. I’m not bothered, let alone worried about upside risks to interest rates!
Remain-supporting institutions like the Arts, Science institutions, etc. could be dished out from the money we’re no longer paying to Brussels, so no one fearing a collapse in their “EU kickback” income - would need fear. Remainers would have been won over, the moment the cash flow was either not disrupted, or replaced from cash-in-hand.
…Then there would be a huge amount left over for other projects, since if our institutions get a kickback paid for out of our donations to Brussels - then it stands to reason that we’ll still have something left having matched those subsidies pound for pound.
Then there’s the prospect of additional revenues:
Assuming that it will be a while before any new, and more lucrative trade routes are set up by-passing the EU where required
So… That’s our cashflows improved by what? £30bn per year. We’ve got the rest of the world to trade with, no need to borrow or trade with the EU any longer, but I would imagine they’ll BEG us to do a deal to keep access to OUR markets. It’s not so easy for all these European land-locked former nations to trade with the rest of the world.
No Boatiepoos!
What would all this cost us?
The EU steal our £9bn on deposit. 
A drop in the bucket, one-off cost that that would be. 
EU-UK relations soured even more than this recent engineered effort vs Russia. Whoopee! Ask me if I’m bothered! 
We might be forced to have closer relations with China, as the number one candidate for buying up all our freshly issued paper - SHOULD we actually need to continue borrowing money on the international money market. 
We’ve by-passed the IMF, so can’t henceforth be dictated to by them, as the Labour government was in the late 70’s. 
We’d have better relations with the Commonwealth states - important now, more than ever - if Liz is on the home straight… 
We’d have better relations with America - Not bad, if Trump lives up to his Rhetoric on “Business Deals”.
We’d weaken NATO perhaps, but I suspect that Trump would keep NATO running as part of his own negotiations with the UK, probably with the UK and US actually running it outright, seeing as we two nations put the most money in… 
Russia? Worsening relations would make excuses for a stronger NATO, but improving relations would bring down the cost of energy, which actually helps the UK as a net consumer, and hinders the EU, because they wouldn’t be making anywhere near as much from exporting their own glut of energy production, especially Electricity.
Russia, of course - could drop the bottom out of the natural gas market, which is not going to please the EU, but UK consumers? - “Let’s ask them if they are bothered getting much-lower energy bills…” We all know what the answer would be.
Science, Research and Development?
Imagine what breakthroughs could happen IF electricity was as cheap as chips, IF we didn’t have lousy international relations with those that could make it so, and IF we could fund all said R&D ourselves from the £30bn per year we’re better off by from the day we stop paying over such money to be wasted in the political pit of the world stage.
This is a clear vision for Brexit.
How come no one in the entire Westminster Parliament - has even spoken of such things though?
FORGET Pretend Brexiteer Boris Johnson. He’s now toast at the next election, thanks to a “Flying Picket” style campaign run by next-door MP John McDonnell.
Boris has already lost half his majority - to little fanfare. I don’t even vote Labour, but can see him losing the rest - at the next election, now he’s shown his true Remainer, Liar, and Self-centered colours…
Carryfast:
Does this sound like Brits can’t feed ourselves and are dependent on the EU to bleedin feed us.IE why would the EU need to impose rules on us that we can’t promote the consumption of British origin produce in that case.
I`ll take your link to a Co-Op publicity site and give you a link to the ONS.
gov.uk/government/publicati … -uk-supply
UK is currently producing 49% of our own raw foodstuffs. The EU is our biggest supplier giving 30% of total foods.
Carryfast:
So you can forget the bs EU food dependency issue.Also why would we want to be ‘friends’ with a vindictive bunch of muppets who would like to think that they can starve us into submission because we don’t want to be a part of their stinking Napoleonic style fiefdom and Federal dictatorship.
I dont think they want to starve us into submission. I rather thought they were mostly happy, rubbing along, trading in a peaceful way with us in a free trade zone. Maybe Im wrong though.
Carryfast:
As for the bs that we aren’t producing stuff that they want to buy great that doesn’t exactly fit the script that we need their market nor open ours to them does it.While they certainly need ours more than we need theirs especially Germany.On that note how does replacing Mercs and BMW’s with Jaguars in the domestic market,by hitting the Germans at least as much as they decide to hit us,for example,fit the script of low paid Brit workers and less jobs ?.While if you’re so worried about everyone loses in a trade war then why is it the EU that wants to start it for the crime of secession not us.
If the EU wants and needs our goods so desperately then why do we have a trade deficit ?
On WTO rules we would be in direct competition with China and India etc. as suppliers to the EU. Our goods will no longer be tax free, but be taxed equally to their products. What will happen to our trade then? How can we reduce our prices? Ask our current leaders and they talk of “de-regulation and competitiveness”. Yep, competition: The Race To The Bottom regards pay and conditions!
Carryfast:
,by hitting the Germans at least as much as they decide to hit us,
Why do we have to hit each other?
Trade Wars are like real shooting Wars. EVERYONE loses. Just because one side loses a little less doesnt mean theyve gained!
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Does this sound like Brits can’t feed ourselves and are dependent on the EU to bleedin feed us.IE why would the EU need to impose rules on us that we can’t promote the consumption of British origin produce in that case.I`ll take your link to a Co-Op publicity site and give you a link to the ONS.
gov.uk/government/publicati … -uk-supply
UK is currently producing 49% of our own raw foodstuffs. The EU is our biggest supplier giving 30% of total foods.Carryfast:
So you can forget the bs EU food dependency issue.Also why would we want to be ‘friends’ with a vindictive bunch of muppets who would like to think that they can starve us into submission because we don’t want to be a part of their stinking Napoleonic style fiefdom and Federal dictatorship.I don
t think they want to starve us into submission. I rather thought they were mostly happy, rubbing along, trading in a peaceful way with us in a free trade zone. Maybe Im wrong though.Carryfast:
As for the bs that we aren’t producing stuff that they want to buy great that doesn’t exactly fit the script that we need their market nor open ours to them does it.While they certainly need ours more than we need theirs especially Germany.On that note how does replacing Mercs and BMW’s with Jaguars in the domestic market,by hitting the Germans at least as much as they decide to hit us,for example,fit the script of low paid Brit workers and less jobs ?.While if you’re so worried about everyone loses in a trade war then why is it the EU that wants to start it for the crime of secession not us.If the EU wants and needs our goods so desperately then why do we have a trade deficit ?
On WTO rules we would be in direct competition with China and India etc. as suppliers to the EU. Our goods will no longer be tax free, but be taxed equally to their products. What will happen to our trade then? How can we reduce our prices? Ask our current leaders and they talk of “de-regulation and competitiveness”. Yep, competition: The Race To The Bottom regards pay and conditions!Carryfast:
,by hitting the Germans at least as much as they decide to hit us,Why do we have to hit each other?
Trade Wars are like real shooting Wars. EVERYONE loses. Just because one side loses a little less doesnt mean theyve gained!
We know that foreign food producers have a large share of our domestic market.That isn’t the same thing as saying that we’re ‘dependent’ on it.IE do you really think that Brit farmers would be moaning about too much imported food if they couldn’t then meet the demand.
Then you’re trying to say that our trade ‘deficit’ with the EU puts ‘us’ in the weaker position than them in a trade war.Which is total bs when by definition that means ‘our’ market is worth more to ‘them’ than ‘theirs’ is to ‘us’.So as I said we sell a few less Jaguars there but they sell far less BMW’s and Mercs here with Jaguar for example then filling the resulting vacuum.You can then apply that to numerous other types of German imports.
Then you contradict yourself by saying that we are all supposedly happily going along in a ‘free trade area’ why do we have to hit each other.Oh wait I thought your argument was that this so called ‘free trade area’ comes with the strings attached of being an EU member state subject to EU Federal rule.So it’s not a ‘free trade area’ at all.It’s the blackmail of sovereignty and cash in exchange for trade let alone that trade all being in the EU’s ( Germany’s ) favour not ours.Anyone daring to secede from the Federation is then subject to trade sanctions imposed ‘by the EU’.
You really are avin a larf.
Carryfast:
Just about everything else I buy is British origin meat and vegetables
Why on Earth would you make a point of buying British vegetables, from farmers with backward, unmechanised methods who stuff their fields full of underpaid foreign workers?
Carryfast:
We know that foreign food producers have a large share of our domestic market.That isn’t the same thing as saying that we’re ‘dependent’ on it.IE do you really think that Brit farmers would be moaning about too much imported food if they couldn’t then meet the demand.
Using land that is less than optimal to produce food is possible, but will obviously cost more. Farmers aren`t simply sitting on productive land. And farmers are farmers, they are like lorry drivers, they enjoy a good moan! Also individual farmers may moan about prices being too low, we the consumers tend not to moan about low prices.
Carryfast:
Then you’re trying to say that our trade ‘deficit’ with the EU puts ‘us’ in the weaker position than them in a trade war.Which is total bs when by definition that means ‘our’ market is worth more to ‘them’ than ‘theirs’ is to ‘us’.So as I said we sell a few less Jaguars there but they sell far less BMW’s and Mercs here with Jaguar for example then filling the resulting vacuum.You can then apply that to numerous other types of German imports.
acea.be/statistics/article/m … u-partners
80% of the UK’s car production is exported, of which 54% goes to EU member states. In 2017, the United Kingdom produced 1.75 million motor vehicles, exporting 800,000 of these within the European Union
The other way around, the EU countries represent 82% of the UK’s motor vehicle import volume, worth €38 billion. The 27 other EU member states (EU27) produced 19.69 million motor vehicles in 2017 and exported 2.3 million (11.7%) of these to the United Kingdom.
If we enter a trade war (unlikely I hope) or an imposed tariff situation 52% of our car exports would be taxed. 11.7% of their exports would be taxed. We would both loose out, but our trade balance would probably suffer the worst.
Carryfast:
Then you contradict yourself by saying that we are all supposedly happily going along in a ‘free trade area’ why do we have to hit each other.Oh wait I thought your argument was that this so called ‘free trade area’ comes with the strings attached of being an EU member state subject to EU Federal rule.So it’s not a ‘free trade area’ at all.It’s the blackmail of sovereignty and cash in exchange for trade let alone that trade all being in the EU’s ( Germany’s ) favour not ours.Anyone daring to secede from the Federation is then subject to trade sanctions imposed ‘by the EU’.
As members of the EU club we pay our fees, of course.
As members of a club we are free to come and go as we wish, but only so long as we pay membership. The club has rules of course, and as members we helped make those rules. Outside the club we will have no further say in those rules.
You surely know that there is “no such thing as a free lunch”?
The EU is quite possibly a better deal than any alternatives. I can`t see Mr Trump offering us a “free lunch” or anyone else for that matter.
“Blackmail … daring to secede”!
If we stop paying dues into a club do we accuse them of “blackmail” if they point out that we can no longer use the facilities?
Rummaging around stuff at the supermarket, I always wondered how anyone can make money on some of the grub we seem to import as part of any globalist trade plan we currently operate under.
Here we have a 50p reduced punnet of strawberries from Egypt. Not even in the EU, so God knows how anyone can make money on this, with costs of utilizing “our” transport industry being what they are.
Here we have some flat peaches from Uraguay. Same story, not in the EU, and pennies on the reduced stall. Nothing wrong with them, other than “about to expire on sell-by date”.
Straight bananas aside - a lot of what we import from the EU is surely done for their convenience, as it helps alleviate the food mountains and all…
What we sell the other way, we can sell elsewhere of course, assuming that the forces in motion that get flat peaches and out-of-season strawberries across to other-side-of-the-world Blighty - must surely work to get our stuff to faraway shores as well?
There’s also the damage to the third world to consider: Their quality of merchendize is obviously crap compared to ours, and the cost of transport for export THIS time around - make it “not worth bothering with”. So the globalists come up with some rules that is nothing more than an effective embargo on all food exported from the third world.
Then we’re asked to reach into our pockets “for the next famine relief” as if these third world countries, actually awash with their own food - need our donations, because they cannot afford the latest designer gear & Iphones otherwise…
Should a third world nation actually rise up, and overthrow their dictatoral regime, then instead of relief efforts actually going to this battered region, and handing out food aid, and other charitable support (not including “assisting the child prostution economy”) - we actually see Western states “shying away, altogether” as if a regime under a dictator is preferable to some kind of popularist uprising that puts a “President of the People” in power there. More poverty can be inflicted upon a third-world nation by the rest of the world “not accepting a new regime of the people” than can be caused by most other methods, excepting “Civil War” of course. In Syria, the “War” would already be over, had the West accepted Assad as it’s rightful leader, and rejected the Rebels as being part of the ISIS problem in the region, and needing to be crushed in the name of the “War on Terror”.
Egypt - The west were quick to accept the Muslim Brotherhood’s brief time in power - but when overthrown by the Miliatary with popular and (more importantly) secular support - suddenly the world turns against Egypt as if they are now a nation of Bad Guys, simply because they’ve objected to having yet another Islamic government… WTF?
Meanwhile, Egypt’s biggest source of foreign cash - Tourism - is on it’s knees, thanks to these Western manipulations against the Military Government, that to be fair - retains popularity in Egypt, especially among the young.
I conclude that most of the world’s strife - is caused by politicians sticking their noses in where they are not wanted. Foreign Policy, Home Front, Economic Sanctions, and Over-Regulation on staple products.
What’s the solution?
I would say, more smaller nations, NO “Unions” of nations at all. Let each area stand up on it’s own two feet as a nation - or lose the qualification to BE a “Nation”. It’s pretty straight-forard really.
Nations need to concentrate on their own economies, and act to preserve their own cultures. Bugger everything else outside of those prime directives.
The world would be a far happier place, if we didn’t keep on seeing nations large and small pursing these daft aims of “reaching beyond their remit” all the time.
Right now, it’s as if we are returning to Renaissance Europe, full of stupid rules, unnecessary wars, endless suffering, and no mercy to those who don’t accept that status quo.
F… the lot of 'em. I’m up for PROPER change, before the world itself - start to push back at humanity, with devestating consequences.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
As for the bs that we aren’t producing stuff that they want to buy great that doesn’t exactly fit the script that we need their market nor open ours to them does it.While they certainly need ours more than we need theirs especially Germany.On that note how does replacing Mercs and BMW’s with Jaguars in the domestic market,by hitting the Germans at least as much as they decide to hit us,for example,fit the script of low paid Brit workers and less jobs ?.While if you’re so worried about everyone loses in a trade war then why is it the EU that wants to start it for the crime of secession not us.If the EU wants and needs our goods so desperately then why do we have a trade deficit ?
On WTO rules we would be in direct competition with China and India etc. as suppliers to the EU. Our goods will no longer be tax free, but be taxed equally to their products. What will happen to our trade then? How can we reduce our prices? Ask our current leaders and they talk of “de-regulation and competitiveness”. Yep, competition: The Race To The Bottom regards pay and conditions!
Agreed!
The last time I looked, China has a serious problem with Agriculture. There just isn’t enough of a water supply to water crops there, meaning that China will be depdendent upon imported food supplies forever. This makes China more vulnerable to a “Food Embargo” than Britain or the West is to Russian Nukes!
In short, if we stop selling food to China, then they’ll starve, whilst we just flog it somewhere else on Earth, just not the EU anymore, if they want to continue this self-defeating hardball.
Trump’s more aggressive stance vs China on trade - isn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do, with that in mind. We don’t worry about China “Expanding” like we seem to do with Russia, so I would suggest that in future more rather than less trade is going to happen between the UK and China as a result.
“Dependencies… Ahh Dependencies…”