Re: Brexit could end 48 hour working week…
Unread postby onesock » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:59 am
You’ve opened a can of worms here weeto. This post will go on until after the second referendum !! And the third and fourth
Rjan:
weeto:
…and holiday pay for millions of part time workers.
Brexit threat to paid holidays as Tories plan to scrap EU rules on workers' rights - Daily RecordI hate to say I told you so. Right wing Brexiteers are salivating at the chance to “cut red tape” and attack workers’ pay and conditions.
Blimey I thought we were in the EU when Callaghan imposed ‘wage restraint’ and gave Brit jobs to German workers and then Thatcher finished the job of smashing what remained of our unions for him.Then Blair put in his bit and then Cameron.If there’s any salivating going on it’s scumbag Corbyn and his Bolshevik followers’ hopes that they will be at the top of the politburo of their EUSSR dream that remainer May is delivering into their hands.No surprise the Soviets and Federalists won’t let facts stand in the way of their stinking agenda. 
Winseer:
At present, who gets ov Libdems go from 57 seats to 9 on the back of them being called a “100% Remainer’s Party”…
Ironically that bit is the truth.If the LibDems weren’t mostly if not all a bunch of Soviet Socialists masquerading as democrats then Henry Bolton would obviously be their leader instead of that lying treacherous zb Cable.
.
Darkside:
Brexit Hit To UK Economy Could Be £350m A Week Leavers Promised To Claw Back | HuffPost UK PoliticsJust released FT study…
Doesn’t exactly say how they’ve reached their figures.What we do know is that we are a massive net contributor along the lines shown by the Leave campaign for the privilege of of being a net importer of EU goods and services.While the remainers figures so far try to say that our trade deficit with the EU as a whole is ‘only’ £60 billion pa when our trade deficit with Germany alone is £50 billion. Oh wait it’s probably based on their typically biased bs that it’s ok for the EU to hit us with trade sanctions for the crime of secession from their Federal zb pile but we can’t/mustn’t retaliate.While even by their own figures how does a 60 billion trade deficit supposedly get counted as a credit against the net contributions.
Lying federalist zb’s who would have thought it.History suggests that the anti Federalist v Federalist argument can rarely be settled peacefully let alone democratically.This example probably won’t be any different in the long term when these lying zb’s and their treacherous supporters in the government have inevitably succeeded in over turning the referendum decision.
Darkside:
Brexit Hit To UK Economy Could Be £350m A Week Leavers Promised To Claw Back | HuffPost UK PoliticsJust released FT study…
No opinion, whatever it’s source, can give you hard facts regarding the outcome of leaving the EU juggernaut. Mark Carney, present governor of the Bank of England, is pro-remain. His predecessor, Mervyn King is pro-leave. Pick the bones out of that!
TiredAndEmotional:
Rjan:
weeto:
…and holiday pay for millions of part time workers.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-threat-paid-holidays-tories-11710779I hate to say I told you so. Right wing Brexiteers are salivating at the chance to “cut red tape” and attack workers’ pay and conditions.
And the uncontrolled influx of migrant workers had no impact on terms and conditions…
Only under “free trade” - which is precisely what the Tories want us to swallow a greater dose of.
I’ve written at length before about how pay and conditions need to be reinforced against undercutting - but you do that with less free trade and more rules on the marketplace, not more free trade and fewer rules, the latter being precisely the Brexit that the Tories are openly fighting for.
Those in the Labour party who support Brexit (i.e. predominantly the older, working class, MPs) see the opportunity in fighting for completely the opposite, including the ability to create national monopoly or publicly-supported corporations as vehicles through which great things can be achieved (like the NHS which provided efficient world-class healthcare when it was properly funded, ICL which was a British competitor to IBM in its heyday, the electric boards which built all the electrical infrastructure in the country, British Railways that refurbished the battered rail infrastructure after the war and designed or built most of the trains still in use).
To the Tories, companies which provide steady jobs on decent pay and conditions for decade after decade, and produce world-class products and public infrastructure are not something to be proud of - they’re always “flabby and inefficient”, by which they mean they employ a vast numbers of workers in good jobs and their operations serve the public interest, and because their investment capital is raised through taxation instead of borrowing from the private wealth of the rich (at interest), they don’t provide the way in for any sucker straws for the rich to extract huge profits.
If the Tories merely wanted to reinforce the wage market against undercutting in which migrants are used as an instrument by bosses to force down local wages, they could do that just by introducing more regulation on pay rates and working conditions - and there is no EU rule that prevents it being done tomorrow (and most other EU countries have greater protections than Britain, both from stronger legislation and stronger collective bargaining).
It’s extremely hard to believe that any working class person still seriously believes that the Tories are fighting for a Brexit that is favourable to the working class. You only have to look at them and listen to them, they’re talking all the time about abolishing workers rights, freer trade, and more market competition - precisely the things that have eroded wages and living standards for working people. They’re giddy at the prospect of unleashing a new round of attacks against workers, with the consent of those very workers.
And whilst Labour MPs may also be in favour of Brexit, someone like Dennis Skinner doesn’t even remotely see himself as being in bed with the likes of Liam Fox or Michael Gove. The Brexit-supporting public - the kind who have far more in common with Dennis Skinner than Liam Fox or Michael Gove - don’t seem to realise just how radically far apart the two agendas are. They’re poles apart.
fivetide:
IR35 is the reason I packed in IT contracting and it will devastate the IT industry because most of my IT friends are getting contracts abroad.
You mean, they just couldn’t bear to get a real job or pay their fair share of tax?
Beetlejuice:
HOT AIR .Workers rights have been on the decline since Maggy hammered the unions .
nothing new here .
So do you want them to decline further by propping up the right-wing government of a plastic Maggie Thatcher?
Rjan:
Beetlejuice:
HOT AIR .Workers rights have been on the decline since Maggy hammered the unions .
nothing new here .So do you want them to decline further by propping up the right-wing government of a plastic Maggie Thatcher?
It’s a bit Hobson’s choice, just like the Americans had in their election. If anyone can turn me into a Tory it’s the PLO’s man in Islington.
Adonis.:
Rjan:
weeto:
…and holiday pay for millions of part time workers.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-threat-paid-holidays-tories-11710779I hate to say I told you so. Right wing Brexiteers are salivating at the chance to “cut red tape” and attack workers’ pay and conditions.
“Brexiteers” “salivating at the chance to attack”, give your head a shake you sad fanatic.
Unfortunately it’s the truth - although I did say “right-wing Brexiteers”.
The sort of Brexiteers I talk to, people who work for a living, aren’t rabbiting on about wanting another cut in their pay and conditions so that they can compete with India on free trade terms. They want their ■■■■ pay and conditions, and the pay and conditions for their kids, to go up. They want tariffs, they want protective legislation - all the things that the Tories pretend can’t be delivered tomorrow whilst they are still in the EU (and after Brexit, if they get it their way, they’ll still insist those protections can’t be delivered without making us “uncompetitive”).
TiredAndEmotional:
Rjan:
Beetlejuice:
HOT AIR .Workers rights have been on the decline since Maggy hammered the unions .
nothing new here .So do you want them to decline further by propping up the right-wing government of a plastic Maggie Thatcher?
It’s a bit Hobson’s choice, just like the Americans had in their election. If anyone can turn me into a Tory it’s the PLO’s man in Islington.
What’s Hobson’s choice about it? Working class Americans were denied a left-wing candidate, rejected a centrist, and marginally voted for a right-wing candidate who will proceed to attack their interests - having already had their interests and their national industries attacked relentlessly by free market capitalism since the 1970s, and having spent half the 1960s sending their youth off to die for the principle of free enterprise.
There hasn’t been a single period of history where people’s lives have improved at the same time as they have rejected left-wing political principles of treating citizens as equals and running society in the common interest. Even in Russia, no matter how corrupt and decadent that was during the Soviet Union, it’s capitalism is even more corrupt and decadent now that it has abandoned even the last thread (or fig leaf) of the principle of being a society run in the interests of its workers.
Regardless of whether we’re in the EU or not, if we keep electing governments who believe in the power of the free market and deregulation, we will keep seeing them erode our rights as employees.
Most workers can already opt out of the WTD, something that was put into the regulations to satisfy the UK government.
The use of POA’s in the RTD Working time directive that most of us are covered by has made a mockery of the idea of working a genuine 48 hour week average.
Companies have found ways of getting out of holiday pay, by using pseudo self employment or 0 hours contracts.
And instead of the EU fighting this, they have increasingly come round to the UK’s way of thinking, with austerity for ordinary people in the Eurozone, while banks are bailed out, By wanting more free trade agreements, including CETA and TTIP that benefits multi national corporations, not the people who work for them or buy their goods, although the free trade deals that the UK government want won’t be much different.
Rjan:
Adonis.:
Rjan:
weeto:
…and holiday pay for millions of part time workers.
Brexit threat to paid holidays as Tories plan to scrap EU rules on workers' rights - Daily RecordI hate to say I told you so. Right wing Brexiteers are salivating at the chance to “cut red tape” and attack workers’ pay and conditions.
“Brexiteers” “salivating at the chance to attack”, give your head a shake you sad fanatic.
Unfortunately it’s the truth - although I did say “right-wing Brexiteers”.
The sort of Brexiteers I talk to, people who work for a living, aren’t rabbiting on about wanting another cut in their pay and conditions so that they can compete with India on free trade terms. They want their ■■■■ pay and conditions, and the pay and conditions for their kids, to go up. They want tariffs, they want protective legislation - all the things that the Tories pretend can’t be delivered tomorrow whilst they are still in the EU (and after Brexit, if they get it their way, they’ll still insist those protections can’t be delivered without making us “uncompetitive”).
The same old total bollox that a real Labour government and manifesto is supposedly mutually exclusive with us being a non EU member.
Let’s get this right.For just one example.We had the right to strike in the form of secondary action before we joined the EU.We also had a wage policy,that wasn’t based on the bs German bankers’ economic mantra,that inflation can supposedly be controlled by wage restraint.At least in the case of any other workers except their own of course.
While as an EU member state we had Europhile Callaghan imposing exactly that economic policy and then Europhile Thatcher effectively removing the right to strike in the form of secondary action.Followed by Europhile Blair maintaining Thatcher’s status quo in that regard.Don’t remember any calls from the EU over riding any of that on the basis that British workers were/are being treated as second class workers compared to their European counterparts.Then added to by allowing Greek ‘Europeans’ to starve while Germans lectured them regarding austerity and employers taking full advantage of low wage expectation East Euro labour.
IE your claims that EU membership supposedly provides us with working class protection is total and absolute BS.On the contrary having lost numerous workers’ rights not to mention jobs since we joined the Federal scam.
No surprise the Bolsheviks are happy to over look all that if not deliberately lie about it to get their aim of tying us to an undemocratic Soviet style dictatorship.To get the power that they can’t get by the normal democratic process limited to our own borders.Just as the zb’s have hijacked the Labour Party because they know that voters won’t vote for a Stalinist Party that really wants to create another failed dictatorial Soviet style empire in Western Europe.On that note you’ve got a lot worse allies,in the form of everyone from Thatcher to Blair to bleedin Stalin and now his comrade Corbyn and stasi stooge Merkel,on your side.As opposed to ours in the form of people like Benn,Shore,Heffer,Hoey and Boyd. 
muckles:
Regardless of whether we’re in the EU or not, if we keep electing governments who believe in the power of the free market and deregulation, we will keep seeing them erode our rights as employees.
Most workers can already opt out of the WTD, something that was put into the regulations to satisfy the UK government.
Indeed. Anyone wanting to work more than 48 hours already can do. The rules protect those who don’t want to, which is almost everyone.
The use of POA’s in the RTD Working time directive that most of us are covered by has made a mockery of the idea of working a genuine 48 hour week average.
Companies have found ways of getting out of holiday pay, by using pseudo self employment or 0 hours contracts.
Indeed. All problems due to Britain’s uniquely weak employment laws which it has full control over.
And instead of the EU fighting this, they have increasingly come round to the UK’s way of thinking, with austerity for ordinary people in the Eurozone, while banks are bailed out, By wanting more free trade agreements, including CETA and TTIP that benefits multi national corporations, not the people who work for them or buy their goods, although the free trade deals that the UK government want won’t be much different.
The other EU countries are of course not free of class warfare, and neoliberal ideology has influence at the EU level (and the global level) as they do at a national level. But I wouldn’t say the EU is failing to fight abuses of the rules as they are - every time a case goes to the CJEU, they normally end up telling British bosses to belt up (like they did with average holiday pay), and that’s why the bosses hate the EU, because having worked so hard to attack Britain’s labour laws since the 1970s and convince workers to vote for the right-wing governments that did it, they’re now being backstopped from doing so by EU labour laws.
Generally speaking, Britain is the stone in the shoe of the other EU countries which are much more social-democratic, and are predominantly in favour of fair regulation which promotes fair competition and steady business models, rather than deregulation which produces a race to the bottom and eventually crisis.
That’s why, quite sensibly, they’re going to sabotage any attempt by the Tories to get a free trade deal without also having to commit to the same rules and regulations ultimately adjudicated on by the CJEU - they’re already clear that they’re going to write in retaliatory trade tariffs to counteract any measures Britain takes to try and undercut EU rules, to ensure that rule-breaking and deregulation which undermines British workers and undermines EU workers absolutely does not pay.
Rjan:
muckles:
The use of POA’s in the RTD Working time directive that most of us are covered by has made a mockery of the idea of working a genuine 48 hour week average.
Companies have found ways of getting out of holiday pay, by using pseudo self employment or 0 hours contracts.Indeed. All problems due to Britain’s uniquely weak employment laws which it has full control over.
What could possibly go wrong.The Germans dictating our economic policy and the Cons implementing it.
In which case how does that fit your script that the answer is more EU.As opposed to Benn’s/Shore’s/Hoey’s/Boyd’s idea of a real Labour government ruling a sovereign country which can tell the German bankers and stasi Merkel and their Federalist puppet Con allies like Thatcher/Blair/May to zb off ?.
In other news the queensferry crossing goes up to 70mph tomorrow.
Rjan:
muckles:
Regardless of whether we’re in the EU or not, if we keep electing governments who believe in the power of the free market and deregulation, we will keep seeing them erode our rights as employees.
Most workers can already opt out of the WTD, something that was put into the regulations to satisfy the UK government.Indeed. Anyone wanting to work more than 48 hours already can do. The rules protect those who don’t want to, which is almost everyone.
The use of POA’s in the RTD Working time directive that most of us are covered by has made a mockery of the idea of working a genuine 48 hour week average.
Companies have found ways of getting out of holiday pay, by using pseudo self employment or 0 hours contracts.Indeed. All problems due to Britain’s uniquely weak employment laws which it has full control over.
And instead of the EU fighting this, they have increasingly come round to the UK’s way of thinking, with austerity for ordinary people in the Eurozone, while banks are bailed out, By wanting more free trade agreements, including CETA and TTIP that benefits multi national corporations, not the people who work for them or buy their goods, although the free trade deals that the UK government want won’t be much different.
The other EU countries are of course not free of class warfare, and neoliberal ideology has influence at the EU level (and the global level) as they do at a national level. But I wouldn’t say the EU is failing to fight abuses of the rules as they are - every time a case goes to the CJEU, they normally end up telling British bosses to belt up (like they did with average holiday pay), and that’s why the bosses hate the EU, because having worked so hard to attack Britain’s labour laws since the 1970s and convince workers to vote for the right-wing governments that did it, they’re now being backstopped from doing so by EU labour laws.
Generally speaking, Britain is the stone in the shoe of the other EU countries which are much more social-democratic, and are predominantly in favour of fair regulation which promotes fair competition and steady business models, rather than deregulation which produces a race to the bottom and eventually crisis.
That’s why, quite sensibly, they’re going to sabotage any attempt by the Tories to get a free trade deal without also having to commit to the same rules and regulations ultimately adjudicated on by the CJEU - they’re already clear that they’re going to write in retaliatory trade tariffs to counteract any measures Britain takes to try and undercut EU rules, to ensure that rule-breaking and deregulation which undermines British workers and undermines EU workers absolutely does not pay.
Are you really trying to suggest that trade deals with Australia,US,Canada would be more exploitative of low wage pressures than what we’ve got in the form open door trade with the basket case East Euro economies and their equally banana republic type wage expectations. Also exactly what EU trade barriers are actually supposedly stopping the European market being flooded with cheap Far Eastern imports made by even more slave wage levels.The unarguable result being job losses among previously well paid US export jobs and loss of reciprocal UK manufacturing operations.Which benefits East Euro and China while also exempting Germany keeping their position of top dog in Euroland.Which probably explains why the Australian and US car industries are toast while European roads are full of either far eastern products or German ones.While Ford’s/GM’s/■■■■■■■■ previous UK manufacturing operations here are just a memory.While Europe’s transport market is dominated by cheap East Euro operations undercutting west euro wage levels.
It’s really impossible to believe that you actually believe your own bs.As opposed to your real agenda,like Merkel’s,being an EUSSR to replace the old USSR and,like your Marxist Chinese cronies,being happy to ally with free marketeers like Blair and Cameron and the German bankers etc to get it.
Carryfast:
Rjan:
Unfortunately it’s the truth - although I did say “right-wing Brexiteers”.The sort of Brexiteers I talk to, people who work for a living, aren’t rabbiting on about wanting another cut in their pay and conditions so that they can compete with India on free trade terms. They want their ■■■■ pay and conditions, and the pay and conditions for their kids, to go up. They want tariffs, they want protective legislation - all the things that the Tories pretend can’t be delivered tomorrow whilst they are still in the EU (and after Brexit, if they get it their way, they’ll still insist those protections can’t be delivered without making us “uncompetitive”).
The same old total bollox that a real Labour government and manifesto is supposedly mutually exclusive with us being a non EU member.
I think you’ll find I haven’t said anything of the sort. The implication of leaving the EU will not be that a Labour manifesto cannot be implemented. It is that there will be grave economic consequences. Even in the heyday of British industry, Britain had a “union” of worldwide colonies (under common political control from London) to provide it with trading markets much larger than the shores of the UK.
If we have to carry on trading with the EU to maintain the scale of our economy and the breadth of our markets, we may as well do it whilst having a seat at the table where common political decisions are made. The EU will extract its running costs, whether by taxation of its members who have a seat at the table, or by trade tariffs imposed on non-members who don’t have a seat - or even, as in the case of Norway, by taxation of non-members who don’t have a seat at the table.
And the core, powerhouse countries of the EU like Germany and France are not going to divide and allow the whole thing to collapse, because it’s still within living memory of having their capital cities and industries razed to the ground and foreign troops rampaging through their family homes.
Unless Britain is willing to wage war against the other EU member states, and successfully conquer them, and bring the political centre of the EU to London as it was able to with an imperial empire predicated on the conquest of undeveloped countries, then it’s just delusions of grandeur to suppose that by leaving as an official member, it regains any real sovereignty over the things that matter (like the rules which govern the marketplace in which it trades).
Let’s get this right.For just one example.We had the right to strike in the form of secondary action before we joined the EU.We also had a wage policy,that wasn’t based on the bs German bankers’ economic mantra,that inflation can supposedly be controlled by wage restraint.At least in the case of any other workers except their own of course.
Secondary action is lawful in Germany, France, so too in Greece, Cyprus, Sweden, and probably most other EU countries in fact. There’s almost invariably laws which govern it, but it’s false to assume that the EU has any general anti-strike rules, or even that other countries labour laws are remotely as weak as ours.
While as an EU member state we had Europhile Callaghan imposing exactly that economic policy and then Europhile Thatcher effectively removing the right to strike in the form of secondary action.Followed by Europhile Blair maintaining Thatcher’s status quo in that regard.Don’t remember any calls from the EU over riding any of that on the basis that British workers were/are being treated as second class workers compared to their European counterparts.Then added to by allowing Greek ‘Europeans’ to starve while Germans lectured them regarding austerity and employers taking full advantage of low wage expectation East Euro labour.
IE your claims that EU membership supposedly provides us with working class protection is total and absolute BS.On the contrary having lost numerous workers’ rights not to mention jobs since we joined the Federal scam.
I never said the EU provides comprehensive protection. It merely provides some minimums (which our Tories would abolish), and does not impose any realistic limits on the maximums. So I can’t see what legitimate grudge the average British worker has against EU law.
No surprise the Bolsheviks are happy to over look all that if not deliberately lie about it to get their aim of tying us to an undemocratic Soviet style dictatorship.To get the power that they can’t get by the normal democratic process limited to our own borders.Just as the zb’s have hijacked the Labour Party because they know that voters won’t vote for a Stalinist Party that really wants to create another failed dictatorial Soviet style empire in Western Europe.On that note you’ve got a lot worse allies,in the form of everyone from Thatcher to Blair to bleedin Stalin and now his comrade Corbyn and stasi stooge Merkel,on your side.As opposed to ours in the form of people like Benn,Shore,Heffer,Hoey and Boyd.
Oh belt up. You reel off these names in almost every political post you make, without barely a shred of relation to the argument you’re making. One does not need to be a Bolshevik just to make the argument that, to preserve stability and avoid war, the scope of political control needs to extend to cover the entire marketplace.
You mention being in favour of secondary action - well that is a form of collective control over the marketplace, which relies on there being secondary actors who will coordinate with the primary strikers in sympathy, in order to compete with the bosses who, because they are fewer in number and already have the levers of power, already exercise a fair amount of coordination with each other and control over the marketplace in their own interests (and against the interests of workers, which strikes are designed to redress).