im just seeking a little clarification. if i work for 2 hours for argument sake then have a 30 min break do I loose the 4 remaining hours of the 6 hour rule.
yesterday i got myself into a little bit of a pickle. Clocked in 4.45am left yard at 6 am for a drop 30 mins away stopped off to get a cuppa and a sausage bean and cheese slice from Greg’s (it was revolting btw) got 1/2 mile from the drop and stopped to feed my face around 6.45 so had my first 30 min.
got back to the yard and loaded for my second run had a calamity at the first drop and had to go back to the yard to tip the damaged barrels off. by the time i had sorted it it was midday so time for 2nd 30min break i thought (approx. 6 hours after the finish of my last one) then left to complete my other drops. gone 6pm and i am still buggering around out there and to be frank getting a little stressed out as i still had a drop in Dartford, stuck in traffic and rapidly getting near the 15 hour mark. Called the yard to update them and was told I didn’t need a break as i had had a total of 1h so far but they were happy for me to pull over and have a tea and a drag for 20 mins. I decided notice i decided to crack on as having a break would of stretched the time constraints to the max. Have i done the wrong thing as far as the law is concerned. I must say my traffic office is fair with me and there is a good relationship in general and they wouldn’t mark me down as someone to push and take the micky out of.
" After working for 6 hours a mobile worker must take a break of at least 15 minutes. However, if working more than 6 and up
to 9 hours in a shift a mobile worker needs to take a break totalling at least 30 minutes - this could be two breaks of 15 minutes.
Where a shift will contain more than 9 hours of working time, a total of 45 minutes of break is needed"
I regard WTD as written above, 15 min for the 1st 6 hours, 30 total before 9 hours and 45 min total for over 9 hours. However other people I know read it like you suggested that it resets after a break and think that after 30 min and before another 6 hours they need a 30min again.
No doubt someone can give us an authoritative answer.
If you go.over 15 hours even by 1 min then that’s illegal anyway.
.
Way I do it on.the odd days when don’t do much driving time.
do.upto 6 hours before need a 15 min break. Then take a 30 min break before 9 hours.
Although bear in mind if you take your 15 min.break say after 2 hours. 6 hour rule still applies.
So you start at 6 work to 8 have a break of 15. You will need another break at 14 15. At be 6 hours since last break.
Way I do it anyway if it suits and don’t do much driving during the day
And never realy on what any manager says about your working hours time .
cooper1203:
im just seeking a little clarification. if i work for 2 hours for argument sake then have a 30 min break do I loose the 4 remaining hours of the 6 hour rule.
yesterday i got myself into a little bit of a pickle. Clocked in 4.45am left yard at 6 am for a drop 30 mins away stopped off to get a cuppa and a sausage bean and cheese slice from Greg’s (it was revolting btw) got 1/2 mile from the drop and stopped to feed my face around 6.45 so had my first 30 min.
got back to the yard and loaded for my second run had a calamity at the first drop and had to go back to the yard to tip the damaged barrels off. by the time i had sorted it it was midday so time for 2nd 30min break i thought (approx. 6 hours after the finish of my last one) then left to complete my other drops. gone 6pm and i am still buggering around out there and to be frank getting a little stressed out as i still had a drop in Dartford, stuck in traffic and rapidly getting near the 15 hour mark. Called the yard to update them and was told I didn’t need a break as i had had a total of 1h so far but they were happy for me to pull over and have a tea and a drag for 20 mins. I decided notice i decided to crack on as having a break would of stretched the time constraints to the max. Have i done the wrong thing as far as the law is concerned. I must say my traffic office is fair with me and there is a good relationship in general and they wouldn’t mark me down as someone to push and take the micky out of.
Bit confusing.
Is this it?
Start… 04hr45
Break 1 …06hr45- 07hr15…30 min break
Break 2 …12hr00 - 12hr30…30min break
Break 3 …after 18hrs? when? … 20min break?? or did you decide not to?? (Sorry you confused me)
Finish…When?
Assuming you didnt exceed 4hr30 driving between start and 12hr00, nor between 12hr30 and finish, no problem with driving hrs, so well agnore them.
As I see it you have no issues up to end of break 2 at 12hr30.
You need to have started Break 3 before 18hr30. (to avoid 6hrs duty)
You need to have finished by 19hr45. (to avoid 15hrs/enable 9hrs daily rest before 24hr period)
If you didn`t take Break 3? Then you have worked 12hr30 to shift end with no break. If this is near a 15spread (19hr45) looks bad.
From end of last break (12hr30) did you work more that 6hrs?
start 0445
break at 0645 for 30 mins which resets the WTD 6 hour rule and also is the first 15 mins of a split driving time break
If you have a reduced daily rest available then you must finish shift by 1945
WTD rule is that at no point in a shift must you do 6 hours work/drive without having a 15 min (not 30) break
But no authority enforces it BUT many companies do
ROG:
WTD rule is that at no point in a shift must you do 6 hours work/drive without having a 15 min (not 30) break
But no authority enforces it BUT many companies do
There it is…
Clearly and specifically defined, thank you ROG, very kind.
To sum up, a confusing, contradictory, non enforced unless it’s by your company then you can get a telling off for something that has never been prosecuted since it’s inception…set of rules.
You’d have more luck playing pick-up-sticks with your ■■■■■■■■■■ than ever making actual sense of WTD and drivers hours.
yourhavingalarf:
You’d have more luck playing pick-up-sticks with your ■■■■■■■■■■ than ever making actual sense of WTD and drivers hours.
Don’t assume everyone is stupid. It’s not that complicated, it’s only made confusing by clueless people trying to convince others they’re right. You most certainly can get the basics extremely quickly that’ll cover 99% of what you do unless you’re a real knuckle dragger and for most just keeping to drivers hours regs will keep them in line with the WTD breaks too.
The way the rules are written can cause problems for some people which is why sites like this can explain them in a different way and yet mean the same thing
Scenarios also help many to understand them
If something is explained in every way possible and the person still does not get it then maybe they are - lacking in any sort of understanding
Franglais:
Bit confusing.
Is this it?
Start… 04hr45
Break 1 …06hr45- 07hr15…30 min break
Break 2 …12hr00 - 12hr30…30min break
Break 3 …after 18hrs? when? … 20min break?? or did you decide not to?? (Sorry you confused me)
Finish…When?
Assuming you didnt exceed 4hr30 driving between start and 12hr00, nor between 12hr30 and finish, no problem with driving hrs, so well agnore them.
As I see it you have no issues up to end of break 2 at 12hr30.
You need to have started Break 3 before 18hr30. (to avoid 6hrs duty)
You need to have finished by 19hr45. (to avoid 15hrs/enable 9hrs daily rest before 24hr period)
If you didn`t take Break 3? Then you have worked 12hr30 to shift end with no break. If this is near a 15spread (19hr45) looks bad.
From end of last break (12hr30) did you work more that 6hrs?
sorry i see your point i clocked out at 7.15pm with no break so yes I went over the 6 hours by 45 min. Got back to the yard at 7 with 4.17 min of driving done so didn’t go over the 4.5 hour driving rule.
I think the tm’s point was when i phoned up i had had 60 mins break and only needed to have 45 mins as far as wtd goes. The fact I had a break only after 2 hours is my mistake for want of a better word and as I was approaching the 15 hour rule I chose not to stop.
I think from the rest of the replies I have been naughty and should of stopped for a 6 hour working break as far as wtd goes. However, doing so would of put me with only 15 min spare of the 15 hour rule which if I have understood the replies correctly is a bigger sin regardless of not working Saturday
Franglais:
Bit confusing.
Is this it?
Start… 04hr45
Break 1 …06hr45- 07hr15…30 min break
Break 2 …12hr00 - 12hr30…30min break
Break 3 …after 18hrs? when? … 20min break?? or did you decide not to?? (Sorry you confused me)
Finish…When?
Assuming you didnt exceed 4hr30 driving between start and 12hr00, nor between 12hr30 and finish, no problem with driving hrs, so well agnore them.
As I see it you have no issues up to end of break 2 at 12hr30.
You need to have started Break 3 before 18hr30. (to avoid 6hrs duty)
You need to have finished by 19hr45. (to avoid 15hrs/enable 9hrs daily rest before 24hr period)
If you didn`t take Break 3? Then you have worked 12hr30 to shift end with no break. If this is near a 15spread (19hr45) looks bad.
From end of last break (12hr30) did you work more that 6hrs?
sorry i see your point i clocked out at 7.15pm with no break so yes I went over the 6 hours by 45 min. Got back to the yard at 7 with 4.17 min of driving done so didn’t go over the 4.5 hour driving rule.
I think the tm’s point was when i phoned up i had had 60 mins break and only needed to have 45 mins as far as wtd goes. The fact I had a break only after 2 hours is my mistake for want of a better word and as I was approaching the 15 hour rule I chose not to stop.
I think from the rest of the replies I have been naughty and should of stopped for a 6 hour working break as far as wtd goes. However, doing so would of put me with only 15 min spare of the 15 hour rule which if I have understood the replies correctly is a bigger sin regardless of not working Saturday
So, it was 12hr30 until 19hr15 with no break?
As you have said, thats 6hr45min, so youve recognised you`re in the wrong there.
Putting a 15 minute break in before 18hr30 would have given you clean sheet, but as you say, would have put you back to a 19hr30 finish. Perfectly legal, but I can understand you being concerned that any delay would have put you wrong.
So long as you stay in the UK you should be OK. Other areas may not ignore EU rules.
Working a Saturday or not, doesnt come into it.....is this another question looming? (3 reduced daily rests between weekly rest periods. Each calculated from start of shift to end of shift 24hrs later. Not 3 plus a further one because its Friday and the “I`m having Saturday off and wanna get home” rule)
ROG:
The way the rules are written can cause problems for some people which is why sites like this can explain them in a different way and yet mean the same thing
Scenarios also help many to understand them
If something is explained in every way possible and the person still does not get it then maybe they are - lacking in any sort of understanding
Might it be an idea to put all the threads related to Drivers Hours/WTD topics into a separate subsection? That way any newbie looking for clarification can have a butchers at all the accumulated posts, I’m sure there must be people who have basic questions that they are reluctant to ask publically.
Zac_A:
Might it be an idea to put all the threads related to Drivers Hours/WTD topics into a separate subsection? That way any newbie looking for clarification can have a butchers at all the accumulated posts, I’m sure there must be people who have basic questions that they are reluctant to ask publically.
Most are in the SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM but I take your point
cooper1203, if I recall the forums may have suggested to you the two 30s approach because sometimes you were getting back after 6 hours but before 9 having only taken a 15 and obviously this would flag up as insufficient breaks if you just finish.
However, taking the 30 very early on in a long shift is the wrong approach as you would inevitably still have to break twice more and one of these later breaks would probably need to be a 30 to reset your driving.
As a suggestion, perhaps if you know it is going to be a long shift, either delay the first 30 or split the morning rest into two 15s (separated by a few hours), so that you are breaking the day up more.
The 6 hour rule
you can’t work more than 6 hours at any point without a 15 min break, a break of 15 or more allows you to work upto another 6 hours before needing another 15 min break. This works the same as driving 4.5 hours and a 45. (Only driving and other work count as working time)
The total break
This is dependent on the total amount of working time in the shift, only driving and other work count as working time for the wtd.
0-6 hours of working time = 0 break required
Over 6 but not over 9 = 30 mins of break/s
Over 9 = 45 mins of break/s required.
A shift can only be have 1 of the 3 apply, so ignore the other 2
Breaks can be taken anywhere in the shift to count towards the total required, except the very beginning or end of the shift, so each break must have at least 1 min of work either side of it and they must be at least 15 mins long to count.
The 6 - 9 and 9+ are purely used to determine how much break is required in total and are nothing to do with when any breaks are required.
So anyone who drives over 4.5 hours in a shift will have a 45 for that and tick the total break box for any shift, so all they’ll need to worry about is the 6 hour rule.
This is the extreme example of what is legal
Work 6
Break 15
Work 6
Break 15
Work 2:14
Break 15
Work 1 min
Noremac:
cooper1203, if I recall the forums may have suggested to you the two 30s approach because sometimes you were getting back after 6 hours but before 9 having only taken a 15 and obviously this would flag up as insufficient breaks if you just finish.
However, taking the 30 very early on in a long shift is the wrong approach as you would inevitably still have to break twice more and one of these later breaks would probably need to be a 30 to reset your driving.
As a suggestion, perhaps if you know it is going to be a long shift, either delay the first 30 or split the morning rest into two 15s (separated by a few hours), so that you are breaking the day up more.
I agree that is what screwed my breaks up. However thinking i had a fairly easy day knowing they had 2 drivers over and everything planned with 4-5 drops as a second run i was confident i was ok as far as fitting breaks in. Unfortunately my first drop on the second run was four 250 litre barrels of oil on a single pallet and i dropped them off the tail lift. The time lost putting them back on the truck and taking them back to the depot and tipping them was the death nail.
cooper1203:
I agree that is what screwed my breaks up. However thinking i had a fairly easy day knowing they had 2 drivers over and everything planned with 4-5 drops as a second run i was confident i was ok as far as fitting breaks in. Unfortunately my first drop on the second run was four 250 litre barrels of oil on a single pallet and i dropped them off the tail lift. The time lost putting them back on the truck and taking them back to the depot and tipping them was the death nail.
I see, it was unexpected and you can wait a while in Greggs sometimes to be fair.
