Calling all brexiteers please sign this if you aint already

Rjan:

Carryfast:
Assuming the SVP hopefully wins the vote and the Swiss government then refuses to toe the line with the EU in that regard are you saying that it’s right for the EU to then impose trade sanctions on the Swiss on the basis that EU law must trump Swiss law and isn’t that just typical Federalist aggression in trying to impose the EU’s will on a sovereign country ?

No, trade sanctions (by which we mean the willingness of one nation to trade with another, and on what terms) aren’t “federalist aggression”, they’re an expression of the sovereignty of other nations (including the EU nations collectively) who get to decide the terms on which they themselves trade with the Swiss. And if another sovereign nation like Switzerland doesn’t like it, then they lump it, and they don’t trade with the EU.

You really need to grasp this point about sovereignty Carryfast, because I’m convinced that if you were to do so, the rest of the jigsaw will fall into place, and we would be able to have a sensible conversation - instead of me constantly facing a word-salad of “federalist aggression” and “socialist totalitarianism” and all the rest of it.

Again that makes the EU the expansionist aggressor in that case not Switzerland.Let alone the EU refusing to recognise Swiss and UK passports as part of that which would effectively be an even more aggressive act of war.

No, it isn’t, it’s the expression of the sovereignty of the EU. That’s what sovereign nations get to do - they say you either deal on our terms, or you go and swivel and we don’t deal, and that’s what sovereignty is. The EU doesn’t have to accept UK or Swiss passports, or do any trade with them, because they themselves get to decide who they do and don’t deal with.

If you can’t see that you’re talking utter bunk when you accuse other nations of an “act of war” because they insist on the right to decide whose passports they’re willing to accept at their own frontiers, then there really is no hope for you.

If you don’t like other nations having the right to decide whether they accept your passports or not, and see it as an “act of war” when they refuse to let you in, then you’re clearly not in favour of self-determining, mutually-respected national sovereignty, despite all the fuss you make about it.

As for that blackmail and aggression…

No, not “blackmail and aggression”, sovereignty!

It’s high time you wake up and realise that, in the world - especially a world where such a big deal is made about asserting sovereignty - you’re not the only one who is going to assert it.

On that note why do you view the idea of Nationalism and National sovereignty as being mutually exclusive with also being left wing in view point.

I’ve already taken great pains to explain why nationalism (in the context of global trade) is antithetical to democracy, and why any sort of truly self-contained nationalism (the examples of which are thin on the ground throughout history, and totally unheard of in the 20th century) would be an economic shot to the temple for living standards.

IE you don’t have to be a Socialist to support the working class struggle.

I’m afraid you have to be some sort of socialist to “support working class struggle”, unless you don’t know what any of these words mean. That is the case even if we accept that there are many radically different visions for what exactly socialism is - but one thing is for sure, no kind of socialist is against political unification as a matter of principle. Even those who in the past have argued for “socialism in one country”, it is a practical compromise rather than an ideological principle - a way to establish socialism gradually and a lever for eventually extending socialism into other countries once the working classes of other countries see that it can be achieved.

While in fact actually seeing the idea of National sovereignty and democracy as an asset in that regard against the forces of the globalist elites.

It isn’t an asset against global elites, it’s a hobble. The greatest asset against global elites is more global democracy, otherwise they simply play the workers of one nation off against another.

With free movement just effectively being a form of people trafficking based on similar economics as slavery.

But I’m not in favour of low-wage workers being shipped around for exploitation. What you can’t seem to separate is the distinction between being in favour of workers being treated equally in a common democracy, unimpeded by national borders and corrupt local agendas, and the dysregulated capitalist system we have which is based on moving workers around to undercut and drive down existing wage rates.

The latter could be abolished simply and straightforwardly by imposing a wage policy - that is, through minimum wages, wage councils, and better unionisation, none of which are remotely radical policies and all of which have already been proven to work spectacularly within living memory.

So all you’ve done is to enlarge the same nationalist v socialist argument onto a wider bigger European platform.What are the EUSSR supporters going to do then just ignore us all ?.That’ll work.IE we can be just as collectively Nationalist as you can be collectively Socialist nothing has changed only the size of the two opposing sides.Bearing in mind that bribing East Euro with our cash is obviously no longer working for you. :unamused:

youtube.com/watch?v=dpkLZP6SxL8

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