Hi Guys,
I would like to pick the brains of the LGV instructors on here. let me first say that I am a NRI registered Instructor on all LGV categories and have a respectable first time pass rate. Yesterday I presented a guy for his cat C test and an examiner I had never met before took the candidate out for test. I mentioned to a coup[le of other instructors that I didnt know the examiner and was told that they had just made the transition from car examiner.
On their return to the test station I attended for the debrief where the examiner was sadly informing the guy he had failed. I listened intently as the reason(s) were explained and accepted that the candidate recieved a serious fault for not having all round observation during his reverse manoever (Only checked his left mirror before starting and didnt check it again until he was almost in the bay) Then the examiner went on to explain that he had awarded 4 minor faults thus becoming a serious fault for not performing the blindspot check on any of the 5 times he had stopped at the side of the road. this quite surprised me as the guy had never missed even 1 on the last 2 days of training let alone 5. At this point the candidate told the examiner that he had done his blindspot check everytime exactly as I had shown and told him. The Examiner then said that he had not once looked over his right shoulder when pulling away from the kerb. The examiner then left the cab at that point and obviously the candidate asked me why I hadnt taught him to look over his right shoulder. I answered that I had never heard of this being required on an LGV. cars yes, motorcycles yes but not trucks. I follow the L>A>R>D>A system where the D stands for Down ie so you can check the area beside and forward of the driver that the mirrors cant cover. So, is this something new that I havent been made aware of or have I been doing it wrong for the past 20 years?
I’m not an instructor but I can say I was definitely shown on both C and CE to do the blind spot the way as the examiner explained by actually looking over the shoulder and not relying on a mirror check.
dcgpx:
I’m not an instructor but I can say I was definitely shown on both C and CE to do the blind spot the way as the examiner explained by actually looking over the shoulder and not relying on a mirror check.
Thanks for the reply
If other instructors are teaching this then I will have to start doing so.
So did you have your window open during the test? I ask this because I am 6’3 and have the seat as far back as it will go. If I had the window closed all I would see over my shoulder is the inside of the cab.
I will add though that this is the first time any of my test candidates have got more than 1 minor for blindspot checks and that itself is very rare, usually when they have omitted to do it.
Curious related question. In the event of a disagreement between learner/trainer and the examiner. Is there any recourse to complain about the result? Or is it always what the examiner decides goes, they must get it wrong on occasion?
No there was no requirement to have a window open just to do the lifesaver look similar as you pointed out to when I did my bike test. In a way that made it easier as I’ve always looked before pulling away since then
dcgpx:
No there was no requirement to have a window open just to do the lifesaver look similar as you pointed out to when I did my bike test. In a way that made it easier as I’ve always looked before pulling away since then
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I’m pretty sure I was taught to do a shoulder check everytime too, but as I’m a biker its natural for me to do this anyway so it was never going to be an issue on my test. TBH surely it’s just common sense to look eveywhere that you humanly can before moving off?
dcgpx:
No there was no requirement to have a window open just to do the lifesaver look similar as you pointed out to when I did my bike test. In a way that made it easier as I’ve always looked before pulling away since
Yep I have been a bike rider for over 50 years so looking behind just comes naturally as you say.
I have just sat in my truck (Mercedes ) and in my normal driving position if I simple look over my shoulder I see the cab. in order to see outside the cab I need to lean a long way forward and to have the window open. Dont get me wrong, If this is what is being taught now then I will of course adopt it immediately. After all the main object is to train the candidate in such a way as to equip them to not only pass their test but also to be safe throughout their driving career. It just strikes me as strange that the NRI trainer/examiner I had only showed/taught the LARDA system Left> Ahead> Right> DOWN> Ahead which is what I have used since I first started instructing.
IronEddie:
Curious related question. In the event of a disagreement between learner/trainer and the examiner. Is there any recourse to complain about the result? Or is it always what the examiner decides goes, they must get it wrong on occasion?
Yes there is an appeal system if the candidate feels they have been un fairly treated. However, in the vast majority of cases when the feedback from the examiner is analyzed it usually turns out to be accurate
IronEddie:
Curious related question. In the event of a disagreement between learner/trainer and the examiner. Is there any recourse to complain about the result? Or is it always what the examiner decides goes, they must get it wrong on occasion?
Yes there is an appeal system if the candidate feels they have been un fairly treated. However, in the vast majority of cases when the feedback from the examiner is analyzed it usually turns out to be accurate
I was questioned by one of my trainees about why they had to do the ‘over the shoulder’ look so I took some cones and placed then in various locations where some could not be seen by the mirror but could be seen by looking back/across
That satisfied the trainee as to why it was done
Passed Class 2 in 2001 & Class 1 in 2006 and was taught by two different instructors in two different areas of the UK, Class 2 in Worcester (Test in Gloucester), Class 1 in Merthyr (Test in Neath) and I was taught by both to look over right shoulder before pulling away. I was not expected or required to have my window open I’d just lean forward slightly and look roughly around 4 o’clock imagining that there was a clock face with 12 being eyes front dead centre (I’m 6’2" btw).
Passed both cat C and C+E this year and was taught to look back / behind, where the mirrors don’t cover. Exactly like a lifesaver on a motorbike. Never had to open the window in training or tests. No minors for observation.
Help
When moving off, instructor, said its not just enough, to check mirrors, but a look behind, and down side of cab, before moving off. Can that only be done with window down, or will examiner not pick up, on what your doing if you don’t,■■ whats the proper way for test.
I tried to remember and check left mirror, ahead, right mirror and over shoulder. I had window closed. It’s just to check if you have someone or something in blind spots on right side of the vehicle.
Does no one actually read existing topics anymore or are the ‘create a new account just to troll’ cretins out in force?
But I’ll go on the assumption it’s the former, why the hell not, it’s not costing me anything… look here for an extremely coincidentally similar topic, it might answer your question… viewtopic.php?f=5&t=149570
I always explain correct use of mirrors and the need for a blindspot check at the end of the controls lesson and immediately before the demonstration drive. I will emphasise all this during the demonstration amongst many other topics as they inevitably arise.
Having arrived a few minutes later at an industrial estate I have a conversation about what has been said and done so far. Then the candidate moves to the driver’s seat and gets comfortable. The very next thing I do is to, with the driver’s window open, stand at the side of truck on the driver’s side and ask if I can be seen in the mirror. Of course I can. Then I step towards the centre of the road a yard or so. At this point they can generally see my shoulder. A small move further and I cant be seen in the mirror. I then point out that I am a 16 year old (use your imagination here!) on a scooter just passing the truck as he is about to move away. To drum the point home, I then walk forward about 8 feet in front of the truck and indicate that this is the point at which he kills me because he couldn’t be bothered to look. I rarely have to repeat this instruction.
On another point, some examiners take different views on this. And this is why it’s perfectly possible for a “notional” check to pass a test (sadly). I have found that, almost without exception, more recently trained examiners are expecting the check to be done properly ie a serious look behind. I totally support this and it causes us no difficulty at all.
I think one of the biggest problems that some instructors have (and I’m NOT including the OP in this as I probably don’t know him/her) is that an instruction will be given eg “check over your shoulder” with little or no explanation as to WHY this is needed. If I’m learning a new skill I need to know why I need to perform any particular action. Otherwise it doesn’t sink in. And I’m not that unusual.
I can say without doubt that a right hand blind spot check is required for the 5 times a candidate is asked to pull over on the left (7 times on the PCV test)
Usually a candidate will be asked to pull over in locations where there is a possibility of something happening beyond the mirror view i.e. driveways opposite.
Where there is a fixed number of occasions on the test, in this case 5, many examiners will use the 50% guideline to assess the seriousness of the problem meaning that 2 misses will attract a driving fault each but the 3rd may make it serious as an habitual fault.
The fault location will be in the Move off Safely box at the top of the middle section on the test report.
As for complaining candidates can write to customer services but there is no appeal against an examiners assessment of a fault only if the test was not conducted as per the rules printed in the DT1 examiners guidance
“The Examiner then said that he had not once looked over his right shoulder when pulling away from the kerb. The examiner then left the cab at that point and obviously the candidate asked me why I hadnt taught him to look over his right shoulder. I answered that I had never heard of this being required on an LGV. cars yes, motorcycles yes but not trucks.”
The OP is an NRI registered instructor, he contradicts himself in the original post by saying that his candidate had not missed one blindspot check all during his training but then says that he did not realise that he needed to do this check, following the test failure.
(I fail to see what the instructors height or seating position has to do with not instructing the candidate correctly.)
Do any other DSA/NRI approved instructors think that the blind spot check is not required before moving off from rest?
