Saviem's fan club.

[Saviem]

Well I'm sitting here with the Bollinger bubbles just caressing the sides of a Stourbridge made lead chrystal glass......and contemplating Fergies picture of STSIs ,( Societe Transports Speceaux Industrie), number 102 Pacific M26 A1 , (non armoured cab), ex Bourgey-Montreuil, (a fellow member of STSI), fitted with a Rootes supercharged HB600 Cummins 12 litre, driving through a modified Mack TRQ7220 20 speed transmission, (identical to their DM Mack 6x4s) ,lugging that 7.5 metre wide 100 tonne piece on its way to the Refiney at Nengis, Seine et Marne, way back in 1969.

STSI were very proud of that move, and I was once privileged to receive "chapter and verse", about that particular operation, from the men who planned it, and that particular lorry, at a very enjoyable, and prolonged dinner, one night in Paris. STSI was the ultimate grouping of the French Railways diverse Heavy Haulage road transport operations. These included notable operators such as, Gary de Favies, Paris, Bourgey- Montreuil, Chambry, Farcat, Grenoble, and other operations grouped as SITM, SNTS, SGTS, and TSI. Equipment ranged from Unic V8s, TBO, and GBO Berliets, Pacifics, Diamond Ts, Mack DMs, as well as that most handsome lorry, the Bernard Television, with its Gardner licence MF636 185 hp power, in 6x4 form, but fitted with a SINPAR deep reduction twin speed auxillary gearbox, giving 24 ratios to choose from when coupled to its 18 metre, hydraulic tri axle steering Nicolas from Champs sur Yonne 800mm high semi trailer......(so very similar to look at a DISPATCHERS drawing, ) but without the high cab roof!

But its probably their trailer parc that is the most interesting. Fergies second picture shows a leviathan of 1950s French HEAVY HAULAGE, THE bOURGEY Montreuil double swan neck trailer. Here it is pictured with only one Pacific, and with just the double line 16 wheel dolly behind the tractor. For heavy loads there would be a single line 8 wheel dolly, then the double 16 wheel, supporting the trailer, with at the back the single 8 wheel, plus double 16 wheel bogie, (all the 8 wheel sets were from Rogers M9 45 ton Sherman Tank trailers.....oh the back tandem bogie is actually the rear end of a time expired Pacific on its 1400x24s!......200 tonne payload....no problem sir.......both the Pacifics had Cummins HB power!

Fergies third picture shows a 150 tonne payload being handled by an ex Farcat Pacific, with a Diamond T "pusher" in the early 60s. But the trailer is the real interest. It is an ex WW2 German Gothaer 12 line, 48 wheeled unit, with solid rubber tyres . Farcat owned one, Gary de Favies another. Each could handle 150 tonne payloads, but under S.T.S.I. both were used as modules with a Girder centre at train weights of up to 500 tonnes, utilising a Pacific as a prime mover, and also as pusher, with a Diamond T pusher as well!.

These Gothaer trailers came into French service in 1950, and were still being used 30 years later!. But do not think that all the equipment was "yesterdays vintage", because there were necks by Nicolas, with multi line modules by Nicolas, Cometto, girders by Savoisienne, as well as those fabricated in the works of Bourgey- Montreuil, (and some of their trailer conversions and works were totally outstanding, and well ahead of the competition).

Incidentally Gary de Favies was the only French Heavy Hauler to name his Pacifics, (Mammouth, and Goliath), the name plates were retained when the new S.T.S.I. livery of silver was applied .

I must go, its past my bedtime, and I very nearly swerved down the side road of that Belgium heavy hauler Transports Jonet, from Charleroi, and their Kenworth 4x4 200 tonners.........but that's another story for another time.....and their trailers were really special!!!!!

Cheerio for now.

[pv83]

Hiya,

Another blast of information there Saviem, cheers, always makes a good read.
This might be one of the old Dessiries H Zucconni wagons then?
Looks like a tight fit

Cheers, Patrick

[Froggy55]

Some of them indeed were shipped to China for a second life.

At the other end of Willème's range, here's a former Liberty WW I truck, reconditioned by Willème during the 1920s, and still used as a yard tractor in the 1960s.

[Driver-Once-More]

Several times I have seen mention of tractors, ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36479610

Two Massey Ferguson tractors, both out of production for decades, are still seen as an essential piece of kit by farmers in dozens of countries around the world. What explains their appeal?

A field in Cambridgeshire in eastern England, the size of 40 football pitches, is carpeted with row upon row of tractors.

With 35,000 registered bidders from more than 100 countries and about 2,000 lots under the hammer at each sale, it's the biggest monthly second-hand farming machinery auction anywhere.

Buyers travel here from across the globe, many of them from the developing world, looking for machines sourced mainly from the UK, Ireland and Scandinavia.

For many, especially those from Africa, the object of their quest is a Massey Ferguson 135, or its sister the 165. Produced in their hundreds of thousands for a decade starting in the mid-1960s, they were the most popular models of their day, says Bill Pepper, auctioneer and director of Cheffins, the company that runs the sales.

"All these old tractors, some of our buyers refer to them as mechanical donkeys," he says.

It's the machine of choice for farmers who have been ploughing with cattle and carrying loads with donkeys, and are looking to upgrade.

"These old Masseys, like the 165 and the 135, they're so basic but they're incredibly reliable and they just keep going on and on. Providing they've got a bit of fuel, a bit of water and there's oil in the engine they'll keep on going, probably until they're 100 years old," says Pepper.

"We've had examples where they've literally been sitting in a hedge for 10, 12 years, people have put a bit of diesel in them, they've tow-started them and boof! - off they go - just like that.

"Parts are plentiful and they are easy to fix. They have good, strong, basic mechanics. There's no electrics involved, so you haven't got any problems with that, and they just go on and on."

Find out more

Listen to Follow that Tractor on BBC World Service Radio, on Wednesday and Thursday 15 and 16 June - click here for transmission times or to listen online

The bidders are not only farmers, but also dealers.

Harsha Dharmawardene from Sri Lanka, who has been coming to the auction for 30 years, exported more than 100 Massey Ferguson tractors per year between 1993 and 2003 and once bought 86 in one day - every Massey on sale.

He ships the tractors to Sri Lanka, where he refurbishes them then sells them again to farms as far afield as Tanzania and Nigeria.

What do you look out for when buying a 40-or-50-year-old tractor?

Also among the buyers are Barnabas Sawe and Gideon Okungu from Kenya, who usually take a test drive, examine the engine and paintwork to see if it is original, not refurbished, and check the hours the tractor's engine has been working - tractors' lives are measured in hours, not mileage.

A good tractor can transform a village, Sawe says, helping in any number of ways - getting water from a river, for example.

"It transforms a society - it transforms a community," he says.

Most people who buy from the auction get their initial investment back in two years, by his calculation, and will then be making a profit.

One first-time visitor, Abdi Mohammed, is hoping he'll soon be able to transform farming in his native Somalia. When he was young in the 1970s and 80s Somalia was a big exporter of bananas, mangoes and papaya, but then it descended into a war from which it is only now emerging.
"When we were young, back home, we saw people using tractors, mainly Ferguson," he says.

"It's a new era in Somalia. This is the time to, maybe in a couple of years, go back home and build."

An old Massey may cost between £2,000 and £2,500. Once paid for, it needs to be dismantled, and loaded into a shipping container for a trip across the ocean.

"African buyers want their containers full," says packing expert John Mitcham.

So he removes cabs, wheels, engines, axles, windows, doors - and packs them in weights of up to to 26 tonnes per container - that's usually six to 14 tractors in each one, though following one auction John was able to pack 35 tractors into two containers.

Customers in hot countries don't need cabins, and some don't want heavy wheels, and this allows John to squeeze more into a single container.

Not all foreign buyers want a Massey Ferguson, and not all who want a Massey Ferguson want the venerable 135 or 165. The most popular second-hand tractor, however, is the 165, according to Bill Pepper, and Cheffins sells about 20 per month.
One reason, he suggests, may be that people from former British colonies came to study at agricultural colleges in the UK. "And the tractors which they would have had on their farms and also during their tutorials would have been Masseys because they were kind of number one in their day."

So maybe for some buyers it's not just the machine's simplicity and resilience that explains its appeal, but also a dose of nostalgia.


Pictures in the link.

[Saviem]

Hiya,

Another blast of information there Saviem, cheers, always makes a good read.
This might be one of the old Dessiries H Zucconni wagons then?
Looks like a tight fit

Cheers, Patrick

Evening all,

Thanks for the picture Patrick, that lorry is one of the "genuine" Chinese new ones.......that on nuclear power station construction in which the Anglo-French company GEC-Alsthom were involved......that big old Heat exchanger was manufactured in Northern Ireland.

The Chinese order for PRP-Willeme, (Perez et Raimond, Boulevard Gallieni, Villeneuve la Garenne, (who were the French Detroit Diesel/ Allison importer, as well as having the licence to build the Willeme design of lorries), was for 12 units, all to be V16 Detroit powered, with Clark/Allison transmission, as TG300s, 8x8, 300/1000 tonnes capacity. The longer version of the Pelpel built Horizon cab was fitted, (as it was to the Algerian TG300 for SonelGaz.

Certainly 6 were built and delivered, and it would seem that as of 2015, at least two remain in workable condition, 78/15, not a bad innings! Two with a similar specification were delivered to Poland ZTE -Radon, (and Fergie put up a picture of one of them, seemingly retro fitted with a Cummins 335, along with their Faun 8x8).

But if I may be permitted perhaps I could "close the circle" on these wonderful beasts, and just write a few words about where that design went........

Sometime ago I wrote a little about the handsome Cottard built Horizon, Willeme cab. But mainly giving credit to its designer René Harvey, who designed for Willeme. Following the demise of Willeme he joined PRP.....as he should, for was not the conceptual design of the TG range his own!

But PRP ran into financial problems, and the Willeme licence was up for sale........(and I will not go into the shambles that precluded that licence becoming the property of Renault-Saviem).......First rule of dealing....get in, get it bought!......but a shambles it was.....just as on the demise of Foden.....the two acquisition teams from Renault Vehicules Industriels, and "our", new partner Mack......bumped into each other, and sloped off to a Manchester Hotel to discuss who should go first!!!!.......The answer was supplied by Chuck Pigot whose Paccar team went in and bought the lot!.....ah well.......

So MOL acquired the licence, along with the services of René Harvey.....and if you look at the MOL products from the early 80s you will see just how similar both the engineering, and physical cab design is to the Willeme original...........But then a Spanish version of the TG appeared in the orange livery of Sainert SA.....how so?

Well we have to go back to Paris, and a family of quite extraordinary engineering talent, the Ponticelli Brothers, from Le Kremlin, in the 13 th Arrondisment , Lazare, (the eldest, who passed away in 2008, at the age of 110 years), Celeste, and Bonfil, and their links with the Spanish operation of Joaquin Bartomeu Ochoe, (Trading as BTO-Trabosa), whose heavy haulage trailers were much supported by Madrid based Sainert SA in its heavy load operations. And of course Sainert worked in close collaboration with the French operator SCTT, (Societie Commercial de Transports TransAtlantiques, from 34 Rue de Listonne, Paris). Where no "Hors Code" outfit could ever visit!......But that BTO-MOL was a one off, (and when shown it still had the MOL Mammouth over the radiator).....but the market potential was proven, and the Ponticelli Brothers knew that, and René Harvey was to join their Franco Spanish Team.........

Franco Spanish Team?.......enter the very professional team of engineers at Bilbao based Tomas Mintegui Uriguen, (TMU SA), who had been converting, and re-engineering Leyland lorries since the 1950s, followed by spectacular re-engineering of the products of the US Mack concern, as well as "improving those of Pegaso. They would give form to René Harveys creative talent, and deliver perhaps the ultimate expression of the Willeme TG design.....the TMU 8x4, and 8x8 heavy haulage tractor.

Long gone was the old Horizon cab, in its place the DAF 2800/3600 cab.....but simply on Steroids!......Quoted by one South American lorry journalist as, "a room in the clouds"! Much favoured for heavy haulage work in Venezuela, where several plied their trade way up in the clouds, and perhaps even today two examples may still be working in the deep Iturrigolli quarry in the Lebanon. Gentlemen, if you can find a picture, you will see just what a handsome beast that TMU really was!

Ponticelli also converted the most unlikely Renault lorries into all wheel drive, as well as utilising Harvey`s talents to create the all terrain Ibex, and Irtex vehicles........

Then of course René Harveys ultimate creation from the creative engineers at Champ sur Yonne based Nicolas was the Tractomas, perhaps the ultimate Heavy Hauler ever made.......but you can still spot bits of the Willeme TG in its design!

Just a quick thought on" where are they now".....Those big Bertha 8 wheel TGs.......

Dessirier H Zucconi, at least one of theirs is in Angola
STAG,at least one in Algeria.
SCALES, a couple in the Ivory Coast.
Mayer, two still for sale.............(should be in Shropshire......but the conflagration that would ensue.....perhaps not)!

I'm away for a small Bollinger, and the rain is thundering down on my Hay crop......Id rather be in a TG......or perhaps a TMU!

Cheerio for now.

[[zb] anorak]

TMUs here:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=TMU+8 ... s2iqqdM%3A

Here's another, similar curiosity:
http://forums.dhsdiecast.com/default.as ... s&t=137798

[jsutherland]

Thanks again John for yet another fascinating post.
Would it be possible to write a post about the Norbert Dentressangle history from your viewpoint. I think you had mentioned one time in a post a while back that you would one day contemplate writing about the company. I have just discovered I had missed it's take over by the US XPO group last year.
Regards, Johnny

[michel]

T.M.U with a crane.

[pv83]

[quote="jsutherland"]Thanks again John for yet another fascinating post.

I certainly concur

Do you know perchance how many of those Nicolas "super lorries" were built?
First one that comes to mind is the one once owned by Sunters Bros/Econofreight, wonder what happened to it...
Fortunately I was at the Nicolas works some years ago to pick up some modular units.
Little did I know at the time about the history of Nicolas, but the lads where friendly enough to give me a quick tour around, interesting to see and surely there were some "artifacts" of some 40 or 50 odd years ago...
Only thing that changed now for them is that they're in a group with Scheurle and Kamag these days, I wonder if the German counterparts can appreciate the French approach of how to get labour done

Cheers, Patrick

[michel]

Nicolas is a very old company, which began in farming equipment.
http://www.nicolas.fr/fr/entreprise/chronique.html

[michel]

Publicity in the 80th:

[michel]

Easier to read...
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.a ... tones.html

[michel]

Leyland TMU in Spain.

[michel]

One other fine "Buffalo" restored by "Papa Ali" transport company.

[Fergie47]

Fergie 47
hi dave keep the heavies coming
here's my idea of what you might have liked to pillot round europe

Excellent Chris....High roof and sun-visor, in 1960....just need "Transport Bretagne" on the sun-visor, a 29 number plate, Quimper and telephone number on the door, and I'm off..... Do you remember what you were running in the '60's......

A few more old Heavies

[Fergie47]

A selection of Bonnets...........

[Fergie47]

At first this doesn’t look right ..... but then again...

[DISPATCHER]

Fergie 47

Propably tiny TOT with a 4 axle Rogers Semi 8in line (trilex) or KXT with the dreaded 4 xale Eagle, ETN and AUU came
a bit later,AUU converted to artic when Monty had it with 60ton King

[pv83]

Cheers for the info about Nicolas Michel, much appreciated pal

And Fergie, those heavies seem to get better all the time

Cheers, Patrick

[Fergie47]

Something from more...er...recent times
And no, it's not about that orange thing in the centre but it's about that routiers, really nice people, well worth a try if you're around.

Cheers, Patrick

Patrick.........you have one big advantage over us oldies...... digital cameras......you can't imagine the pain in the arse of taking pic's in the '60's and 70's...not to mention the expense....today is such a different story.........keep taking as many as you can, something to look back on in years to come, so many of us wish we'd taken more....but !!!!
I've seen some of your photos on other threads, I'm sure we'd like to see a few on here too....... especially with a French theme, like the one with the Routiers in the back ground !!!!!!

[jsutherland]

Completely agree with you Fergie. Cost me a lot for film and then developing them afterwards.

Sent from my Hol-U19 using Tapatalk

[John West]

Completely agree with you Fergie. Cost me a lot for film and then developing them afterwards.

Sent from my Hol-U19 using Tapatalk

Brother Andy was more interested than me and took more overland photos. While I was doing internals in Saudi, he gave me a camera. It looked complicated to me and unfortunately I wasn't interested. I did take some photos with it, including this Sealand / Cresent wreck near Riyadh.

Sealand wreck

And also this bus in a quarry, near Dhahran. I took a few photos of this. When I showed them round, everyone took a sharp intake of breath. There was apparently a Saudi military gun emplacement above the quarry. If they'd seen me taking photos I would have gone to prison.

Abandoned bus

I would say that these were the highlights of my photographic career. The next film jammed in the camera, I pulled the film out and of course ruined it. I left the camera in the villa and that was the end of that. It wasn't the cost, I just couldn't be bothered! 40 years later, I am kicking myself for not persevering, but also not keeping a diary! I have lots of memories of those days, but of course nothing like as comprehensive as M. Saviem!

Oh to have had a camera that you took out of your top pocket, pointed, and captured the moment!

John

[Retired Old Fart]

I suspect that I and a lot of others thought that it was just too much hackle and expense to take photos of what was "just" your working environment. We never thought how much interest there would be fifty or so years down the line!

[Fergie47]

The dead, dying, resting and rusting...

[Fergie47]

Volvo's,.... F88 and 89's, sorry, they’re not French, they came with a batch of pic's from the French lads.....shame not to post them up.....
starting with a G88...

[Fergie47]

As much as those Volvo's aren’t French, these two are as French as you can get...

[Fergie47]

Nostalgic B/W for the week,,,,,playing in dad's yard....

[robert1952]

Fab!

[jsutherland]

[THUMBS UP SIGN][THUMBS UP SIGN]

Sent from my Hol-U19 using Tapatalk

[pv83]

Something from more...er...recent times
And no, it's not about that orange thing in the centre but it's about that routiers, really nice people, well worth a try if you're around.

Cheers, Patrick

Patrick.........you have one big advantage over us oldies...... digital cameras......you can't imagine the pain in the arse of taking pic's in the '60's and 70's...not to mention the expense....today is such a different story.........keep taking as many as you can, something to look back on in years to come, so many of us wish we'd taken more....but !!!!

I've seen some of your photos on other threads, I'm sure we'd like to see a few on here too....... especially with a French theme, like the one with the Routiers in the back ground !!!!!!

Well, I'm not too keen on using all these modern day tech stuff, still use me old non-digital camera a lot, makes you appreciate the technical side of things more I reckon...however I must admit that it can be a blessing, having a digital camera, especially in "the heat of the moment" like
Didn't thought though that the pics I sometimes post where that much appreciated, will do me best then to post some more

My old man's been to some very distant places, he too wishes that he'd taken some more pics at the time, just took it for granted back then...

Right, back on topic then, I visited this routiers for a brief moment this week, just stepped in for a tea break and to have a shower, nice place, and the showers were clean and tidy, something worth mentioning in France
These two gems were in the far corner of the parking, I always had a soft spot for those little Scanny's...was coupled to some sort of low loader, marque didn't ring any bells though...

Cheers, Patrick