Is it legal to have a WTD break of 30 mins after six hours of work, in a moving vehicle, with the second driver driving?
yup - if the second driver is driving for example, 3 hours, then you can have a 3 hour BREAK (not REST)
rp1974:
Is it legal to have a WTD break of 30 mins after six hours of work, in a moving vehicle, with the second driver driving?
The break for the 6 hour rule only needs to be 15 minutes, but in any case whilst you’re double manning the first 45 minutes of POA whilst you’re sat in the passenger seat will be counted as break so that should take care of the 6 hour rule, apart from that yes you can have a break in a moving vehicle 
Thanks for that. While on the subject of double manning, am I right in saying that while double manning, the presence of the second driver is optional for the first hour, but compulsory for the rest of that working day (in between two daily rests)? On occasion with my current employer, while double maning, we are told to collect a vehicle at the end of our shift from the workshop, which means we both drive back to the yard in seperate vehicles (about a fifteen mile journey) after having worked for 8 or 9 hours together?
Hi Rog
you said this
The break for the 6 hour rule only needs to be 15 minutes
The Regulations require that:
- mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break,
- if your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a
break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes,- if your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break
or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes,- breaks should be of at least 15 minutes duration.
the way you have put it is that he only needs 15 mins but as he as done 6 hour the brake will have to be 30 mins but can be split in to two 15 mins, as long as he take 15 mins on 6 hours and take the other 15 at least 15 mins before the end of his shift, if only working 9 hours if he works longer than 9 hours he would have to do another 15 mins at least 15 mins before the end of his shift.
6 hours consecutive other work triggers the break requirement under the Regulations. A break
of at least 15 minutes must be taken. Mobile worker A then does another 2 hours other work,
takes a break for 15 minutes and then completes another hour of other work before ending
their shift. This complies with the Regulations as their working time is interrupted by breaks
totalling 30 minutes
this bit is if he drives for 4.5 hours or more in is shift
3 hours driving + 2 hours period of availability + 3 hour other work triggers a break
requirement under the Regulations (30 minutes in this case). Another 1½ hours of driving =
4½ hours driving, requiring a 30 minute break under the European drivers’ hours rules. Again,
this is because the second half of a split break taken under the European drivers’ hours rules
(which always takes precedent) must be at least 30 minutes long. Daily break = 60 minutes.
NB If all the conditions for a break are met, then a driver could take his mandatory break
during the PoA.
rp1974:
Thanks for that. While on the subject of double manning, am I right in saying that while double manning, the presence of the second driver is optional for the first hour, but compulsory for the rest of that working day (in between two daily rests)? On occasion with my current employer, while double maning, we are told to collect a vehicle at the end of our shift from the workshop, which means we both drive back to the yard in seperate vehicles (about a fifteen mile journey) after having worked for 8 or 9 hours together?
You’re correct in saying that the presence of a second driver is optional for the first hour but after that the vehicle should be multi-manned throughout the journey.
There’s no obligation for the vehicle to be double manned for the full shift but when you stop being double manned you automatically stop working to the multi-manning regulations so you would revert to the normal single driver rules for rest periods, but of course you can still drive to the normal single driver rules so if in that 8 or 9 hours you’ve only done 4 or 5 hours driving you’d be fine to finish the normal 9 or 10 hours driving between two daily rest periods.
Hope that makes sense 
delboytwo:
Hi Rogyou said this
That wasn’t ROG, it was tachograph. 
delboytwo:
The break for the 6 hour rule only needs to be 15 minutes
the way you have put it is that he only needs 15 mins
I don’t see he has put it like that at all. He is clearly referring to the break before exceeding 6 hours thing not total shift breaks.
rp1974:
Thanks for that. While on the subject of double manning, am I right in saying that while double manning, the presence of the second driver is optional for the first hour, but compulsory for the rest of that working day (in between two daily rests)? On occasion with my current employer, while double maning, we are told to collect a vehicle at the end of our shift from the workshop, which means we both drive back to the yard in seperate vehicles (about a fifteen mile journey) after having worked for 8 or 9 hours together?
tachograph:
You’re correct in saying that the presence of a second driver is optional for the first hour but after that the vehicle should be multi-manned throughout the journey.There’s no obligation for the vehicle to be double manned for the full shift but when you stop being double manned you automatically stop working to the multi-manning regulations so you would revert to the normal single driver rules for rest periods, but of course you can still drive to the normal single driver rules so if in that 8 or 9 hours you’ve only done 4 or 5 hours driving you’d be fine to finish the normal 9 or 10 hours driving between two daily rest periods.
Hope that makes sense
That’s interesting…
So if double manned for say, the first 14 hours of a shift, and then the two split up, the max shift now reverts to 15 hours and not the 21 hours so they can do 1 more hour (rest regs permitting) 
If that same double manned shift has already got to 15 hours or more and they split, then they cannot do anything else as it has gone over the max 15 for a single driver - is that correct
delboytwo:
Hi Rogyou said this
The break for the 6 hour rule only needs to be 15 minutes
The Regulations require that:
- mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break,
- if your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a
break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes,- if your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break
or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes,- breaks should be of at least 15 minutes duration.
the way you have put it is that he only needs 15 mins but as he as done 6 hour the brake will have to be 30 mins but can be split in to two 15 mins, as long as he take 15 mins on 6 hours and take the other 15 at least 15 mins before the end of his shift, if only working 9 hours if he works longer than 9 hours he would have to do another 15 mins at least 15 mins before the end of his shift.
It’s true that if you work between 6 and 9 hours you should have a total of 30 minutes break which should be completed before the end of shift and not at the end of the shift but the question seemed to be weather or not you you could have the 6 hour rule break in a moving vehicle, the 6 hour rule requires a break of at least 15 minutes, but I take your point I could have been more thorough with the explanation
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
Hi Rogyou said this
That wasn’t ROG, it was tachograph.
my apologies for that
delboytwo:
The break for the 6 hour rule only needs to be 15 minutes
the way you have put it is that he only needs 15 mins
I don’t see he has put it like that at all. He is clearly referring to the break before exceeding 6 hours thing not total shift breaks.
if you look at the way he posted it implies that he as done 6 hours
rp1974:
Is it legal to have a WTD break of 30 mins after six hours of work, in a moving vehicle, with the second driver driving?
rp1974:
Is it legal to have a WTD break of 30 mins after six hours of work, in a moving vehicle, with the second driver driving?
I read that as he had exactly 6 hours and then went for a break - perhaps it depends on perception on the way it was written.
If he had gone over 6 hours then he would already be illegal as 15 mins has to be taken at or before the 6 hour point.
delboytwo:
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
Hi Rogyou said this
That wasn’t ROG, it was tachograph.
my apologies for that
delboytwo:
The break for the 6 hour rule only needs to be 15 minutes
the way you have put it is that he only needs 15 mins
I don’t see he has put it like that at all. He is clearly referring to the break before exceeding 6 hours thing not total shift breaks.
if you look at the way he posted it implies that he as done 6 hours
rp1974:
Is it legal to have a WTD break of 30 mins after six hours of work, in a moving vehicle, with the second driver driving?
weather or not he’s done 6 hours is irrelevant to the 6 hour rule as long as the 6 hours hasn’t been exceeded, the rules clearly show that a 15 minute break is required at or before the 6 hour mark.
tachograph:
rp1974:
Is it legal to have a WTD break of 30 mins after six hours of work, in a moving vehicle, with the second driver driving?The break for the 6 hour rule only needs to be 15 minutes, but in any case whilst you’re double manning the first 45 minutes of POA whilst you’re sat in the passenger seat will be counted as break so that should take care of the 6 hour rule, apart from that yes you can have a break in a moving vehicle
weather or not he’s done 6 hours is irrelevant to the 6 hour rule as long as the 6 hours hasn’t been exceeded, the rules clearly show that a 15 minute break is required at or before the 6 hour mark.
it is relevant cos if he only did 5.59 min he would not have to take a WTD brake it only comes in to play after 6 hours and it as to be 30 Min’s. there is no brake required under WTD if you work less than 6 hours(unless you are driving where EU reg would take president over WTD)this is the point i was getting at you are telling some that he only need 15 mins like you said
I take your point I could have been more thorough with the explanation
ROG:
rp1974:
Thanks for that. While on the subject of double manning, am I right in saying that while double manning, the presence of the second driver is optional for the first hour, but compulsory for the rest of that working day (in between two daily rests)? On occasion with my current employer, while double maning, we are told to collect a vehicle at the end of our shift from the workshop, which means we both drive back to the yard in seperate vehicles (about a fifteen mile journey) after having worked for 8 or 9 hours together?tachograph:
You’re correct in saying that the presence of a second driver is optional for the first hour but after that the vehicle should be multi-manned throughout the journey.There’s no obligation for the vehicle to be double manned for the full shift but when you stop being double manned you automatically stop working to the multi-manning regulations so you would revert to the normal single driver rules for rest periods, but of course you can still drive to the normal single driver rules so if in that 8 or 9 hours you’ve only done 4 or 5 hours driving you’d be fine to finish the normal 9 or 10 hours driving between two daily rest periods.
Hope that makes sense
That’s interesting…
So if double manned for say, the first 14 hours of a shift, and then the two split up, the max shift now reverts to 15 hours and not the 21 hours so they can do 1 more hour (rest regs permitting)
If that same double manned shift has already got to 15 hours or more and they split, then they cannot do anything else as it has gone over the max 15 for a single driver - is that correct
The way I would interpret the regulations is that you only work to the multi-manning rules whilst engaged in multi-manning, once you’re no longer engaged in multi-manning you revert back to normal rules, well that’s the way I see it anyway.
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006:
‘multi-manning’ means the situation where, during each
period of driving between any two consecutive daily rest
periods, or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest
period, there are at least two drivers in the vehicle to do
the driving. For the first hour of multi-manning the
presence of another driver or drivers is optional but for
the remainder of the period it is compulsory;
By way of derogation from paragraph 2, within 30 hours
of the end of a daily or weekly rest period, a driver engaged in
multi-manning must have taken a new daily rest period of at
least nine hours.
Hmmm… about as clear as mud…
Del could you point us in the direction of the rule that says you have to have a 30 minute break before exceeding 6 hours ?
rp1974:
Is it legal to have a WTD break of 30 mins after six hours of work, in a moving vehicle, with the second driver driving?
if you are the first driver of the day and in that day you have driven for 4.5 hours and done work for 1.5 hours, then you swap drivers over you put you tacho on POA and the first 45 Min’s would in the regs can be counted as a brake.
you would have to state on the back of you chart that you were doubled maned and there for would not have to worry about you WTD brake as you have taken a EU regs brake of 45 Min’s and there for met you WTD requirement
tachograph:
Del could you point us in the direction of the rule that says you have to have a 30 minute break before exceeding 6 hours ?
Guidance on the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
22
5.4 Breaks
The European drivers’ hours rules require that after 4½ hours, a driver must take a break of at
least 45 minutes. This break may be replaced by a break of at least 15 minutes followed by a
break of at least 30 minutes each distributed over the period.
The break requirements under the Regulations will affect workers who do a mixture of driving
and non-driving work. The rules on breaks will also apply on days when the mobile worker is
not travelling.
The Regulations require that:
- mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break,
- if your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a
break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes,- if your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break
or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes,- breaks should be of at least 15 minutes duration.
In the interest of safety, and as a matter of good practice, it is strongly recommended that
breaks should be distributed evenly throughout the day.
When taking a break, drivers may not perform anything that might be regarded as “other
work” during this period. Breaks taken under these Regulations may be taken at the
workstation (typically this means the driver’s cab - but see glossary for fuller definition of this
and other terms).
if you work 6 hours and 1 min you would have to show a brake of 30 mins if you work 5.59 mins no brake required under WTD
ROG:
That’s interesting…So if double manned for say, the first 14 hours of a shift, and then the two split up, the max shift now reverts to 15 hours and not the 21 hours so they can do 1 more hour (rest regs permitting)
If that same double manned shift has already got to 15 hours or more and they split, then they cannot do anything else as it has gone over the max 15 for a single driver - is that correct
tachograph:
The way I would interpret the regulations is that you only work to the multi-manning rules whilst engaged in multi-manning, once you’re no longer engaged in multi-manning you revert back to normal rules, well that’s the way I see it anyway.
ROG:
Hmmm… about as clear as mud…
If you’ve worked 14 hours and split up then I would say that you can work for a further 1 hour if you’re entitled to a 15 hour spread-over.
If you’ve done 15 hours and then revert back to normal rules then you wouldn’t be able to work any longer would you, the regulations say that a driver who is engaged in multi-manning has to have a minimum of 9 hours daily rest within 30 hours from the start of shift, I would have thought that once the drivers have split up they’re no longer engaged in multi-manning and therefore no longer working to multi-manning daily rest requirements.
I’ll wait to be shown to be wrong though 
Clearer ? 
delboytwo:
the way you have put it is that he only needs 15 mins but as he as done 6 hour the brake will have to be 30 mins but can be split in to two 15 mins, as long as he take 15 mins on 6 hours and take the other 15 at least 15 mins before the end of his shift, if only working 9 hours if he works longer than 9 hours he would have to do another 15 mins at least 15 mins before the end of his shift