Truck Shows and Tacho use

I apologise as I am sure this will have been discussed elesewhere but I genuinely couldn’t find the topic.
Basically, I have been under the impression that certainly since 2006 any “Private Use” of an HGV over 7.5 tonnes has not been allowed. However, I have recently seen - on a Transport Consultants Website - that travelling to a Truckshow / Truckfest could be completed as Out Of Scope.
On looking at the Regs I can’t see any exemption or derogation that would allow this.

So over to the Legal guys - ideas & observations please.

Private use of a HGV vehicle over 7.5t is perfectly legal, however the use of a HGV over 7.5t to carry goods is in-scope of EU regulations regardless of whether the driver is driving commercially or not.

If you’re talking about someone buying a HGV vehicle and taking it to shows it’s perfectly legal to drive out of scope, however it has to be noted that a trailer would be considered as goods so a unit would be OK but if the unit is used to pull a trailer it’s in-scope of EU regulations.

If you’re talking about someone taking a company vehicle to a show it’s a bit more of a grey area (for me it is anyway), I would say if the driver is acting under the instruction of the employer it’s definitely in-scope, if the driver is borrowing the companies vehicle to take it to a show it becomes a bit more grey

So I guess it depends on the situation you’re referring to

Its scenario 2. Company artic Unit. Quality reply as usual but…

Is the Unit not a Goods Vehicle per se even without a trailer? For example if a driver drives a unit back to base after dropping a trailer off or the classic one where he goes to the chippy in the unit only in the middle of a Daily Rest the he would always be considered in scope. Clearly Hire / reward is not relevant - as you say it may be “dark grey”!!

But there does not appear to be a definitive Exemption / derogation.

Both of the scenarios you’ve mentioned would be in-scope because they’re part of an in-scope journey, you cannot drop in and out of EU regulations at will.

If you’re carrying goods for any part of the journey and the journey is not exempt then the whole journey is in-scope of EU regulations.

The journey can only be out of scope if the whole journey is out of scope, which means no goods are carried for the whole of the journey.

Sent from my mobile.

Agree totally but dropping in and out of EC Regs as you rightly say can’t be done but 2 things are present to increase the “grey”.

1.The dropping in and out surely will apply to Weekly Rest as well
2.An artic unit is capable of carrying goods at any time and in theory does not have to have a trailer attached as goods can be carried in the cab - rarely I agree but I’ve seen it done.

The grey are you mentioned in your first reply is not getting any less grey!!

Maigret:
Agree totally but dropping in and out of EC Regs as you rightly say can’t be done but 2 things are present to increase the “grey”.

1.The dropping in and out surely will apply to Weekly Rest as well

A mobile worker can do what he/she like on their rest periods, that includes driving a HGV vehicle as long as it doesn’t contravene any of the drivers regulations.

However on reflextion, I think that if the driver is acting under the instructions of the company the time would be “other work” and should be recorded as such, this could of course interfere with the drivers weekly rest period, however if the driver is borrowing the companies HGV vehicle to go to a show he could in theory at-least do it during his weekly rest period.
(As I’ve said at the end of this post I think that borrowing a company HGV vehicle to take it to a show could be a legal misfield so I guess it all comes down to the precise scenario.)

Maigret:
2.An artic unit is capable of carrying goods at any time and in theory does not have to have a trailer attached as goods can be carried in the cab - rarely I agree but I’ve seen it done.

For the EU regulations it doesn’t matter whether or not a vehicle is capable of carrying goods what counts is whether or not the vehicle is being used to carry goods.

(EC) No 561/2006

Article 1

This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road …

This shows that the EU regulations are about HGV vehicles that are involved in the carriage of goods.

Article 2

1. This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:

(a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the
vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
3,5 tonnes…

This further shows that it’s the carriage of goods that matters and not whether or not the vehicle is capable of carrying goods.

Article 4

For the purposes of this Regulation the following definitions
shall apply:

(a)carriage by road means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether
laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or
goods;

This shows that the driver remains in-scope of EU regulations even if part of the journey (where goods have been carried) does not involve the carriage of goods.

Maigret:
The grey are you mentioned in your first reply is not getting any less grey!!

The more I think about this the more convinced I am that in the proper circumstances a driver can use a company HGV vehicle to go to and from shows while out of scope of EU regulations, but whether or not the time should be recorded as other work depends on the situation i.e. is the driver going to the show for the company or himself.

Of course if the driver was borrowing the vehicle there are other things to be taken into consideration when using a company HGV vehicle to go to a show, for instance insurance, I know nothing of this but I would imagine that a company lending a HGV vehicle to a driver could be a legal minefield

As usual, many thanks for the very considered response. I cannot disagree about this being a grey area and my “safe” view would be to all it driving and for it to be classed as “in scope”. The difficulties down the line of trying to show why there is Missing Mileage or OOS driving shown, combined with the possibility of a Driver being stopped, off card, on route to a show far outweigh the benefits of attending the show in the first place.

Thanks once again. I have been away for a while (I don’t mean doing a “stretch”) and have missed the debate, input and hilarity on here!!

tachograph:
Article 4

For the purposes of this Regulation the following definitions
shall apply:

(a)carriage by road means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether
laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or
goods;

This shows that the driver remains in-scope of EU regulations even if part of the journey (where goods have been carried) does not involve the carriage of goods.

My reading of Article 4 is that it includes a vehicle on a road open to the public and it doesn’t matter whether the vehicle is loaded with passengers or freight or not. Further, I’d say that the part of the journey in/around the showground is included too.

The definition of ‘vehicle’ is at Article 4(b)

(b) ‘vehicle’ means a motor vehicle, tractor, trailer or semitrailer or a combination of these vehicles, defined as follows:

— ‘motor vehicle’: any self-propelled vehicle travelling on the road, other than a vehicle permanently running on rails, and normally used for carrying passengers or goods,

— ‘tractor’: any self-propelled vehicle travelling on the road, other than a vehicle permanently running on rails, and specially designed to pull, push or move trailers, semi-trailers, implements or machines,

— ‘trailer’: any vehicle designed to be coupled to a motor vehicle or tractor,

— ‘semi-trailer’: a trailer without a front axle coupled in such a way that a substantial part of its weight and of the weight of its load is borne by the tractor or motor vehicle;

I just love finding exemptions for people, but even wearing my grey sunglasses, I’m not seeing any here.

I couldn’t help noticing Article 3(g) though…
(This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:)

(g) vehicles undergoing road tests for technical development, repair or maintenance purposes, and new or rebuilt vehicles which have not yet been put into service;

So the vehicle in question has just had a repair (and maintenance just for good measure) and will be put into service just after it gets back from being tested by having had a drive around at the show! </TIC Mode>

Interesting observation Diesel. Loathe as I am to remotely cross swords with “Tachograph”, I am thinking this area may not be as grey as first indicated. For example see the following Clarification note which is basically what exempted Maintenance facility Drivers “provided that they never drove in scope”. Turning this the other way around, then any driver who does drive “in scope” would appear never to be exempt unless it falls under art 3 or 13 as the LeaseEurope case would not apply. The bottom line is that never seems to mean never ever. So as soon as someone does one journey that involves carrying goods or passengers that is in scope of EC rules then the Leaseurope decision can no longer apply and from that time onwards they seem to have to keep a record of any driving that falls within scope of EC 561 regardless of whether there are any passenger or goods being carried:

Regulation (EC) No 561/2006
DISCLAIMER: The present note sets out the Commission services views on implementation
and application of certain rules of Regulation (EC) No 561/2006 on the harmonisation of
certain social legislation relating to road transport. It should be noted that, in any event,
interpretation of Union law is ultimately the role of the European Court of Justice.

COMMISSION CLARIFICATION 2

• Vehicles being driven for repair, washing or maintenance purposes -
  Articles: 1, 2, 4(a), 4(c)
  Issue raised: Vehicles being driven for repair, washing or maintenance purposes
  Clarification:
  According to Article 4(a) of the Regulation, carriage by road is defined as any journey made
  entirely or in part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether laden or not, used for the
  carriage of passengers or goods. Hence, when a driver drives a vehicle for the purpose of
  going to a garage, to a washing facility, to a fuel station, to various locations to drop off or
  take over vehicles from clients etc. by using entirely or in part roads open to the public, this
  type of journey falls under the definition of carriage by road under Regulation (EC)
  561/2006. This is valid for any driver regardless whether his employment is of temporary or
  permanent nature.
  Article 1 of the Regulation, however, stipulates that the rules on driving times, breaks and rest
  periods are applicable for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and passengers by road.
  Depending on the particular circumstances, the duties of the employees of certain companies
  may, by the nature of their functions, not include the activity of transporting goods or
  passengers by road. In such cases these employees would in fact not be engaged in the
  carriage of goods as defined by the Regulation and would thus fall outside the scope of its
  provisions.
  In any case, nothing prevents Member States from applying the rules set out in the Regulation
  also to other transport operations or vehicles or drivers that are not explicitly covered by the
  Regulation.

ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/tr … tion-2.pdf

Maigret:
For example see the following Clarification note which is basically what exempted Maintenance facility Drivers “provided that they never drove in scope”. Turning this the other way around, then any driver who does drive “in scope” would appear never to be exempt unless it falls under art 3 or 13 as the LeaseEurope case would not apply. The bottom line is that never seems to mean never ever. So as soon as someone does one journey that involves carrying goods or passengers that is in scope of EC rules then the Leaseurope decision can no longer apply and from that time onwards they seem to have to keep a record of any driving that falls within scope of EC 561 regardless of whether there are any passenger or goods being carried:

haha I was just reading that clarification note myself before you posted

It doesn’t really say drivers who never drive in-scope but I am leaning towards the idea that what is meant is drivers who are engaged in the carriage of goods in their employment rather than on a particular journey.

The “drivers who never drive in scope” is the DVSA interpretation and they say “Never means Never” and that has been accepted at PI as late as October 2016.

Sorry October 2017

Maigret:
The “drivers who never drive in scope” is the DVSA interpretation and they say “Never means Never” and that has been accepted at PI as late as October 2016.

I’m sticking with my original reading whilst owning up to not being at all aware of the LeaseEurope case.

I tend to read legislation ‘as is’ and rely on plain English unless a definition/meaning is specifically provided in the legislation I’m looking at, which works very well for me with ADR.

Using my logic, never means never, (unless there’s a specific exception provided) so I can understand why TCs take it that black-and-white way.

Maigret:
Sorry October 2017

Oops!! I didn’t see your correction.

Hello knowledgeable ones!

What would be the score be if a ‘not for hire/reward’ truck (above 7.5t) was used by someone not employed as a driver as their normal job (but has kept their LGV entitlement) would a record of the driving have to be kept and hours worked in a non driving job count towards WTD or driving/rest breaks etc? Anything else that would be connected with this scenario?

P.

Pennineman:
What would be the score be if a ‘not for hire/reward’ truck (above 7.5t) was used by someone not employed as a driver as their normal job (but has kept their LGV entitlement) would a record of the driving have to be kept and hours worked in a non driving job count towards WTD or driving/rest breaks etc? Anything else that would be connected with this scenario?

Do you mean if the vehicle is used to transport goods or used for shows or private motoring ?

If it’s purely for showing at truck shows or even just for driving around privately it would be exempt from EU regulations, if it’s being used to transport goods (commercial or not) it would come in-scope of EU regulation unless the vehicle or work is mentioned in the list of exemptions on this page

Tachograph, thanks for the reply.

I have spoken to my mate, he is looking at buying an ‘Old Timer’ and would to take it to truck shows both home and possibly abroad (no commercial activity) in the main.

He would like to set up ‘living quarters’ in the back of the truck, so would this come into the category of carrying goods?

P.

Pennineman:
I have spoken to my mate, he is looking at buying an ‘Old Timer’ and would to take it to truck shows both home and possibly abroad (no commercial activity) in the main.

He would like to set up ‘living quarters’ in the back of the truck, so would this come into the category of carrying goods?

If your mate buys a vehicle that’s over 25 years old it would be exempt from EU regulations (in the UK) for the none commercial carriage of goods anyway, bear in mind that this exemption for 25 year old vehicles may differ from country to country.

If he’s talking about setting up living accommodation in the back I assume he’s talking about a class 2 type vehicle, I don’t see why he shouldn’t be able to fix living accommodation in the back of the vehicle as long as it was permanently or semi-permanently fixed into the vehicle, goods do not include a drivers personal belongings but bear in mind that a van full of house furniture stacked in the back would probably take some explaining if you tried to pass it off as the drivers personal belongings

Thanks Tachograph

I will let ‘Moneybags’ know what you said, he is aware of the over 25 year old rule.

Re the ‘Excess’ furniture, as soon as I read that I just imagined the loaded up truck scene in the opening credits of the Beverley Hillbillies!

P.

I’m siding with Tachograph on this one.

If driver is going to show on his own free will and not being paid to do so, he is out of scope in my humble opinion

If he is going to the show at employer request or on the payroll for the day then I would say in scope.

But what intrigues me in this discussion is the going down to the chippy referred to above.

Can a driver on his daily or weekly rest not put it out of scope and bounce/solo down to the chippy or whatever?

I would have thought he should be entitled to do so but if not perhaps I can be pointed in the direction of the issue.

Thanks in advance.