Is THIS now finally sorted 
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006
Article 8
- A driver shall take daily and weekly rest periods.
- Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.
If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that 24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours, then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a reduced daily rest period.
- A daily rest period may be extended to make a regular weekly rest period or a reduced weekly rest period.
- A driver may have at most three reduced daily rest periods between any two weekly rest periods.
- By way of derogation from paragraph 2, within 30 hours of the end of a daily or weekly rest period, a driver engaged in multi-manning must have taken a new daily rest period of at
least nine hours.
- In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least:
– two regular weekly rest periods, or
– one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly rest period of at least 24 hours. However, the reduction shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest
taken en bloc before the end of the third week following the week in question.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.
geebee45 (VOSA):
Hopefully this will clarify the situation;
Absolutely nothing wrong with having 7 ‘charts’ for 6 ‘days.’ A couple of things we have to make clear;
we are talking about a journey run under the EU rules contained in Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006. Between each ‘daily driving period’ there is a ‘daily rest period’ which will be at least 11 hours, or where allowed 9 hours. The total driving in the fixed week (00:00 Monday to 24:00 the following Sunday) does not exceed 56 hours. The total of work & driving in the fixed week cannot exceed 60 hours. Between the end of the weekly rest and the start of the next weekly rest there may be a maximum of six 24 hour periods (144 hours) or put it another way; if you end a weekly rest at 06:00 Wednesday you must start your next weekly rest no later than 06:00 on Tuesday the following week.
This pattern of having more cards than days is typical of short shifts with not very much driving in them, used to see it with some market traders.
Coffeeholic (Regs GURU):
wrote:
Quote removed as it it wasn’t intended for this thread, or any kind of supposed definitive answer. Only a court can do that so until then we can but wait. It was only one unqualified amateurs take on it and shouldn’t be taken in any way as gospel.
ROG it is permissable for any of the EU member states to apply their own ‘higher minima or lower maxima’. In short this means if the UK want to impose a limit of five days before a weekly rest is to be taken, or you cannot drive more than 8 hours in a day then they can do. I’m not exactly sure how this actually works out in practice, i.e does it have to be laid before the courts for approval or can they just put it in thier guidance leaflets, i don’t know. But i do know they can do it.
What they cannot do most specifically is to breach or extend the EU limits. In the case of 7 charts in six days, if each of those charts is seperated by a daily rest period then it is in actual fact illegal. Not only for the driver to do it, but also for them to allow it.
I wonder has anyone else taken this matter up anywhere?
ROG:
Is THIS now finally sorted
Mike-C:
In the case of 7 charts in six days, if each of those charts is seperated by a daily rest period then it is in actual fact illegal. Not only for the driver to do it, but also for them to allow it.
Obviously NOT for at least one 
Mike-C:
ROG it is permissable for any of the EU member states to apply their own ‘higher minima or lower maxima’. In short this means if the UK want to impose a limit of five days before a weekly rest is to be taken, or you cannot drive more than 8 hours in a day then they can do. I’m not exactly sure how this actually works out in practice, i.e does it have to be laid before the courts for approval or can they just put it in thier guidance leaflets, i don’t know. But i do know they can do it.
What they cannot do most specifically is to breach or extend the EU limits. In the case of 7 charts in six days, if each of those charts is seperated by a daily rest period then it is in actual fact illegal. Not only for the driver to do it, but also for them to allow it.
I wonder has anyone else taken this matter up anywhere?
Hi Mike i think there called it
The Community Drivers’ Hours and Recording
Equipment Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/1819)
Citation, commencement, interpretation and revocation
1.–(1) These Regulations may be cited as the Community Drivers’ Hours and Recording Equipment Regulations 2007 and shall come into force on the seventh day after the day on which they are made.
(2) In these Regulations–
“the Community Drivers’ Hours Regulation” means Regulation (EC) No 561/2006 of the European Parliament and of the Council(4) as amended from time to time;
“the Community Recording Equipment Regulation” means Council Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85(5) as amended from time to time; and
“the 1968 Act” means the Transport Act 1968.
When do we start counting 24 hour periods and why? When do they start and stop. Just answer that simple question.
Mike-C:
When do we start counting 24 hour periods and why? When do they start and stop. Just answer that simple question.
The PROPOSED definition of a 24-hour period.
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006
Article 8
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.
Lets PROPOSE that the definition of a 24-hour period to mean just that, 24 single hours each of sixty minutes or one complete day, a seventh of a week etc, etc.
This MUST be applied to BOTH of the above in article 8 if you say that article 8. 2 is a 24-hour period and article 8. 6 is six of them.
Now we get to the point where a driver starts the first 24-hour period, does various work & breaks etc, which total 12 hours.
The driver now takes a daily rest of 11 hours and wants to start work again.
The driver cannot, as the second 24-hour period does not start for 1 hour as article 8. 2 has been defined as a 24-hour period.
The definition does not allow a period of 23 hours to be called a 24-hour period.
Remember what was defined as a 24-hour period and to fit in with article 8. 6, the driver has a maximum of six separate 24-hour periods.
This is what happens if the same definition of a 24-hour period is applied to both as some seem to insist.
ROG:
ROG:
Is THIS now finally sorted
Mike-C:
In the case of 7 charts in six days, if each of those charts is seperated by a daily rest period then it is in actual fact illegal. Not only for the driver to do it, but also for them to allow it.
Obviously NOT for at least one
Rog if you use a tacho for what it was intended the recording of a 24 hour period then you would only use 6 charts no matter how many shifts you did cos you would have to put the chart back in the same day
it would be the same for a digi tacho the machine and not add a day just cos you put you card in 7 or 8 time there is only 7 days in a week there may be more than seven shifts
and as we know you must take a rest at the end of the 6 x24 hour period
Coffeeholic:
Quote removed as it it wasn’t intended for this thread, or any kind of supposed definitive answer. Only a court can do that so until then we can but wait. It was only one unqualified amateurs take on it and shouldn’t be taken in any way as gospel.
Fair point but I did not say it was DEFINITIVE, I only asked if it was sorted in regard to what seemed to be a fair take on it. 
ROG:
Mike-C:
When do we start counting 24 hour periods and why? When do they start and stop. Just answer that simple question.
The PROPOSED definition of a 24-hour period.
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006
Article 8
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.
Lets PROPOSE that the definition of a 24-hour period to mean just that, 24 single hours each of sixty minutes or one complete day, a seventh of a week etc, etc.
This MUST be applied to BOTH of the above in article 8 if you say that article 8. 2 is a 24-hour period and article 8. 6 is six of them.
Now we get to the point where a driver starts the first 24-hour period, does various work & breaks etc, which total 12 hours.
The driver now takes a daily rest of 11 hours and wants to start work again.
The driver cannot, as the second 24-hour period does not start for 1 hour as article 8. 2 has been defined as a 24-hour period.
The definition does not allow a period of 23 hours to be called a 24-hour period.
Remember what was defined as a 24-hour period and to fit in with article 8. 6, the driver has a maximum of six separate 24-hour periods.
This is what happens if the same definition of a 24-hour period is applied to both as some seem to insist.
So ROG, in one sentence then, when does your first 24 hour period start and why?
ROG:
This is what happens if the same definition of a 24-hour period is applied to both as some seem to insist.
Not quite, that’s what happens if one definition, the one you propose, is applied to both. If the other definition, new period at end of each daily rest and after 6 new periods take a weekly rest, is applied then that ‘problem’ doesn’t occur. You’ve kinda weakened your argument there rather than strengthen it. Actually that’s a little unfair, you haven’t weakened it, you’ve killed it. 
The other definition fits both while the one your proposing doesn’t, mmmhhhhh makes you think. 
Mind you, you are still left with the ‘problem’ of those important four little words to resolve when the other definition is applied.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, by far the vast majority of drivers will be doing a maximum of 6 shifts and taking a weekly rest so it isn’t really that important.
Mike-C:
So ROG, in one sentence then, when does your first 24 hour period start and why?
Same could be as now - from the end of the previous weekly rest period - as that part would not affect the 24-hour period bit.
@ coffeeholic - This was an attempted answer to the question posed by Mike-C as to when a 24-hour period should start & stop and was in no way designed to fit with the current regs wordings - because it does not, nor ever will.
To me, Mike-C seemed to be asking for a definitive to the wording 24-hour period which fits both, as he seems to be saying that both are the same.
Have I got that last statement correct Mike
ROG:
Mike-C:
So ROG, in one sentence then, when does your first 24 hour period start and why?
Same could be as now - from the end of the previous weekly rest period - as that part would not affect the 24-hour period bit.
@ coffeeholic - This was an attempted answer to the question posed by Mike-C as to when a 24-hour period should start & stop and was in no way designed to fit with the current regs wordings - because it does not, nor ever will.
To me, Mike-C seemed to be asking for a definitive to the wording 24-hour period which fits both, as he seems to be saying that both are the same.
Have I got that last statement correct Mike
Yeah i think you have if i’m understanding you right.
We measure a 24 hour period from when we end a daily or weekly rest, thats what the regs say. I can’t see how we can use this fact to start off a 24 hour period and then ignore it for the rest of the week until we’ve clocked up the mythical 144 hours. Also when we start off this 24 hour period surely its ends in 24 hours time and doesn’t keep ticking by its self until it hits again the mythical 144 hours. It ends either when it runs out in 24 hours time or if we start another 24 hour period off by starting duty again.
If i worked my previous example of Monday to Friday lets say 6am to 6pm and then go and do a Saturday shift starting at 5pm until whenever, lets say 4am Sunday morning and then start a weekly rest. I can’t see how i have broken any law. I would have worked 6 24 hour periods. I have started a weekly rest in the same week.
Now before any answers mentioning the mythical 144 hours, which apart from not being mentioned in any legislation has neither been defined. Period of 24 hours, 24 hour period, day,daily driving period has been defined.
Some other urban myths are that you need 30 minutes break when you have reached 6 hours work. You need to carry spare tacho rolls…
Nick ‘Loophole’ Freeman made a fortune and a name for himself as a legal whizz kid. I wouldn’t doubt his intelligence for one minute, but he wasn’t exactly finding any magical loopholes. All he done was to read the regulations properly which was something the prosecuting authorities never did. Rather than admit they where failing abysmally, they hailed him as some one who found loopholes !!
Mike-C:
Yeah i think you have if i’m understanding you right.
I think we are seeing where each is coming from on this which is why I started a mythical definition of a 24-hour period.
Agreeing to the same mythical definition which applies to both might help move things along in our ‘discussions’.
Would you agree that the same mythical definition should apply to both parts and that mythical definition should be - a 24-hour period is a period of 24 single hours, one whole day, a seventh of a week etc etc
I know this is not serious but a bit of fun to see where the ‘thinking’ can possibly be flawed by one of us 
ADD - and I’m having fun with this
ROG:
Mike-C:
Yeah i think you have if i’m understanding you right.
I think we are seeing where each is coming from on this which is why I started a mythical definition of a 24-hour period.
Agreeing to the same mythical definition which applies to both might help move things along in our ‘discussions’.
Would you agree that the same mythical definition should apply to both parts and that mythical definition should be - a 24-hour period is a period of 24 single hours, one whole day, a seventh of a week etc etc
I know this is not serious but a bit of fun to see where the ‘thinking’ can possibly be flawed by one of us
ADD - and I’m having fun with this
I agree with the findings of the relevant rulings, its also in keeping with the previously worded “six driving periods”. Although the reason “six driving periods” is not used i would imagine is that it might provide a green light for someone under the regs to do non driving work on a few days and not take a correct weekly break.They would be able to argue that they where not driving periods. If what i and some others say is indeed correct it means a lot of changes for a lot of people ,lets not forget its not just advisory leaflets that could be wrong there’s also a whole plethora of approved tachograph and drivers hours courses that are sat by examiners and others. Roll on a court case !!!
Del did you get an answer from the TC yet?
hi mike no not a thing
just like to say some thing about rest in other countries i have found the equivalent of the gv262 in German
and in there book there look at the 6x24 in a very different light cos there consider a 24 hour period as just that
a 24 hour period
i have put a link to it if you look at page 18 you will see a diagram
please note its in German
wko.at/bsv/Fahrerhandbuch.pdf
or and by the way there is no 144 hours that i can see
Mike-C:
I agree with the findings of the relevant rulings, its also in keeping with the previously worded “six driving periods”. Although the reason “six driving periods” is not used i would imagine is that it might provide a green light for someone under the regs to do non driving work on a few days and not take a correct weekly break.They would be able to argue that they where not driving periods
Hmmm - to restrict what you suggest would require something like -
A maximum of 5 daily rests between weekly rests 
delboytwo:
hi mike no not a thing
just like to say some thing about rest in other countries i have found the equivalent of the gv262 in German
and in there book there look at the 6x24 in a very different light cos there consider a 24 hour period as just that
a 24 hour period
Actually they aren’t looking at it in a different light. That diagram is simply showing the latest (spätestens) point a weekly rest must begin and is exactly what it says in the VOSA book.
Translation, You wouldn’t normally translate word for word like this but I’m just showing you how they say the same thing
Eine | wöchentliche | Ruhezeit | beginnt |spätestens | am Ende von | sechs | 24-Stunden-Zeiträumen | nach | Ende | der | letzten | Wochenruhezeit.
A | weekly | rest period | begins | latest | at end of | six | 24-hour rest periods | after | end | the | last | weekly rest period
Ruhezeit and Zeiträumen both mean Rest Period.
Remember you could reach that point, 6x24 hours after you begin work in the week before completing six shifts. five long shifts with long rest periods between, long but less than 24 hours so they don’t count as weekly rest, could see you reach that point.
For example 4 x15 hour shifts** with say 18 hours rest after each shift would total 132 hours and would mean your fifth shift would have to end after 12 hours to start your weekly rest at the ‘144 hour’ point.
Likewise, short shifts with short rests between could see you completing 6x24 hour periods long before the ‘144 hour’ point.
** Split Daily Rest
Coffeeholic:
Likewise, short shifts with short rests between could see you completing 6x24 hour periods long before the ‘144 hour’ point.
Which is why I believe they put that 6 X 24 (144) rule in -
To give the driver the flexibility of doing what they want within a maximum fixed period but within the fixed period they still restrict the driver by the daily rest rules.
ROG:
Coffeeholic:
Likewise, short shifts with short rests between could see you completing 6x24 hour periods long before the ‘144 hour’ point.
Which is why I believe they put that 6 X 24 (144) rule in -
To give the driver the flexibility of doing what they want within a maximum fixed period but within the fixed period they still restrict the driver by the daily rest rules.
Or it is simply there because it is possible to reach it having done less than 6 shifts, it could happen in 4 shifts for example. So it is six x 24-hour periods or ‘144 hours,’ whichever comes first. Taking it to the extreme you could have you could have 6x15-hour shifts with 23 hours 59 minutes between each one giving 233 hours and 54 minutes between weekly rest periods. Unlikely but possible and things have to be written into regulations to guard against the extreme, hence the 56-hour weekly driving limit introduced to prevent the unlikely but possible scenario of driving in excess of 70 hours in a week before the April 2007 changes.
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
Coffeeholic:
Likewise, short shifts with short rests between could see you completing 6x24 hour periods long before the ‘144 hour’ point.
Which is why I believe they put that 6 X 24 (144) rule in -
To give the driver the flexibility of doing what they want within a maximum fixed period but within the fixed period they still restrict the driver by the daily rest rules.
Or it is simply there because it is possible to reach it having done less than 6 shifts, it could happen in 4 shifts for example. So it is six x 24-hour periods or ‘144 hours,’ whichever comes first. Taking it to the extreme you could have you could have 6x15-hour shifts with 23 hours 59 minutes between each one giving 233 hours and 54 minutes between weekly rest periods. Unlikely but possible and things have to be written into regulations to guard against the extreme, hence the 56-hour weekly driving limit introduced to prevent the unlikely but possible scenario of driving in excess of 70 hours in a week before the April 2007 changes.
hi Neil
when could you drive 70, is that in the old regs this one
Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85
the reason i ask is that t says this in it
Driving periods
Article 6
- The driving period between any two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, hereinafter called ‘daily driving period’, shall not exceed nine hours. It may be extended twice in any one week to 10 hours.
A driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period as defined in Article 8 (3).
The weekly rest period may be postponed until the end of the sixth day if the total driving time over the six days does not exceed the maximum corresponding to six daily driving periods.
In the case of the international carriage of passengers, other than on regular services, the terms ‘six’ and ‘sixth’ in the second and and third subparagraphs shall be replaced by ‘twelve’ and ‘twelfth’ respectively.
Member States may extend the application of the previous subparagraph to national passenger services within their territory, other than regular services.
- The total period of driving in any one fortnight shall not exceed 90 hours.
reading the above it still looks like 56 hours and a 90 hour spread