Inital CPC query if training for lorries AND buses

Apologies if this has been asked elsewhere, but I’m potentially wanting to train for both buses and lorries and am a little confused about the initial CPC requirements. The relevant websites make it quite clear that if driving both lorries and buses, the PERIODIC CPC doesn’t double to 70hrs, its still 35hrs every 5 years, and I believe the driver can pick bus/lorry/both modules to suit their needs.

As for INITIAL CPC requirements, I haven’t found out where I stand. I passed cat C mods 1,2 and 3 recently and have mod 4 booked for later this month. Whilst hunting for my first lorry job (and I’m prepared for a long hunt with lots of legwork), I found a bus driver vacancy in my local area that I’m interested in. Just thinking very speculatively, but if I were to get the job, I already have cat D1 (not through grandfather rights - acquired in a previous job). I understand that if I was hired as a bus driver I would not need to do the initial CPC as the cat D1 exempts me from it. My question is, would this also exempt me from cat C initial CPC or do I still need to pass the mod 4 test (I did not hold C1 entitlement before passing C test a couple of weeks ago)? My instinct tells me that I still need to do cat C initial CPC but thought I’d check on the off-chance I can save £200.

Am I correct in thinking that I would not need to do the theory and hazard perception test for cat D, as I have passed them for cat D1 (but that someone with grandfather rights for D1 or C1 would need to pass theory and HP for D or C)?

Also, I believe I would not need to do another medical for buses as I applied for provisional C and D categories simultaneously. Is this correct, and if so, how long is the medical valid for?

Feel I should know the answers to some of these questions as I am a car driving instructor, but some of these rules aren’t very clear. Recently taught a motorcycle instructor to drive cars (he taught me to ride bikes last year so payback time!). Since he passed his bike test before 1997 (many years before in fact) he was exempt from car theory and hazard perception due to holding cat B1 entitlement on the strength of his bike test pass. I never knew that one before; you learn new things every day.

Thanks

Ok, let’s start at the beginning and take it one stage at a time.

You are correct with the “no need for 70 hrs” bit and also being able to pick, choose, mix and match. One lot of 35 hours does it all.

In regards to your CAT C, you will need Mod 4 if you wish to drive professionally.

Your D1 gives you grandfather rights for cpc till Sept 10th this year only. That assumes you passed your D1 before 10th Sept 2008. If you passed later than that, you would have done Mod 2 and 4 so it doesn’t sound as if that’s the case.

You will not need to take theory tests for CAT D as you are upgrading in the same category and the original licence (D1) was gained by test.

Anyone with D1/C1 on grandfather rights will have to take theory tests. The C1 gives grandfather rights for cpc whereas the D1 doesn’t. This is because of the restriction on the D1 licence for hire and reward. But the C1 is unrestricted which is why the cpc is covered.

Not only do you not need a medical for your CAT D, you should already have the provisional on your licence as you have a full D1 licence having passed a test for it.

Your medical, as such, does not expire (assuming it’s been sent to DVLA and not left in the glove box of the car). But your provisional vocational licences expire at age 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 then each year. To renew, have a medical. The full licence can lapse and you can regain it simply by medical and application form.

Finally, being a car instructor doesn’t mean you should understand all these rules!

Always happy to answer sensible questions - just fire away.

Pete

Thanks for a very informative reply Peter. All makes perfect sense. I passed D1 in 2005. At the time I didn’t forsee the need for cat D so only applied for provisional D1, so on passing D1 wasn’t granted provisional D as I didn’t request it. In hindsight, you might as well apply for all available provisional categories simultaneously as you never know how circumstances might change. When I decided to train for cat C, I didn’t anticipate being interested in a cat D job, but am very glad I applied for provisional cat C and D simultaneously just because I could. Would advise others to do the same.

Thanks again.

Still slightly confused (doesn’t take much) about 10th September deadline re grandfather rights for cat D CPC. As I understand it, if I were to pass cat D test after this date, I would need to do the CPC theory and CPC practical demo test (mods 2 and 4) as my acquired rights for initial CPC would have expired. Have I understood it correctly?

Just to muddy the water, if I passed cat D practical test very shortly before the deadline (say 8th Sept), it appears from the government website that I would have to complete 35 hours of periodic training before 10th Sept - which is impossible (I’m sure this would affect virtually no candidates but wondering if they realise this absurdity exists?). I guess in this case I could take a few extra days to complete periodic CPC providing I did not drive PCVs commercially whilst periodic CPC not up to date.

Just realised a flaw in that previous post - there is nothing to stop me going out and doing periodic CPC for cat D already since I have the D1 licence.

If you qualify for bus and lorries at different dates, when does the 5 year periodic CPC clock start ticking■■? I would assume it is the earliest expiry date of the 2, then remains constant at 5 years.

As an example, if I passed cat D test 10th August, my periodic CPC for cat D would expire on 10th Sept 2013. If I pass Mod 4 cat C on 29th July 2013, my periodic CPC for cat D would expire 28th July 2018. So if I went ahead and did 35 hours periodic training before 10th Sept 2013, that would satisfy cat D periodic CPC until 10th Sept 2013 only, but cat C CPC until 28th July 2018. Would I have to do another 35 hours CPC before 10th Sept 2018 to satisfy cat D periodic CPC, even though my cat C CPC would be up to date for the bulk of this time?

All hypothetical, but might be best for me to let cat D grandfather rights lapse before passing cat D (obviously doing mod 2 and 4 initial CPC), then I would have approx. 5 years on both C and D periodic CPC. It seems nonsensical to do 35 hours periodic CPC virtually immediately, if that means the clock is reset on 10th Sept, with another 35 hours is required in the next 5 years, while I could just wait a few weeks to qualify for D, doing Mod 2 and Mod 4, thus effectively halving my periodic CPC requirements. Unless I have misunderstood the requirements, which is a distinct possibility.

Firstly, the dcpc system refers to PCV & LGV and not specific categories of each so changing D1 D and C etc to the appropriate PCV or LGV will help you understand how it works

You passed a PCV DSA test before 09/09/2008 so you have acquired/grandfather dcpc rights for PCV
You need to complete 35 hours of periodic dcpc before 09/09/2013 to continue driving PCVs commercially after that date
If you fail to complete the 35 hours by that date then you are suspended from driving PCVs commercially until you have completed the 35 hours

When you have passed all the required initial dcpc LGV modules you will get a DQC (driver cpc card) with a PCV expiry date of 09/09/2013 and a LGV expiry date which is 5 years from passing mod 4 (a date in 2018)

Have you done of any the 35 hours periodic dcpc so far which would count only for your PCV at the moment ?

If you have not done any of the 35 hours then you need to get a move on if you do not want your PCV commercial driving entitlement to lapse for a while after 09/09/2013 !!

If you do all 35 hours of periodic dcpc between the date you pass initial LGV mod 4 and 09/09/2013 then things could get interesting …
Passing all 35 hours should increase the LGV to some time in 2023 and the PCV to 09/09/2018 but the DSA are trying to align both to the same dates when both are in the periodic system so I am not sure how that will work !!
My guess is that both PCV & LGV will get expiry dates of 09/09/2018 so you will lose out - a recent EU directive to the DSA stated that doing a set of 35 hours will align both to the same expiry date with the original PCV in your case taking precedence

I will have to call the DSA DCPC hotline later to confirm this

Called the hotline and they stated that by doing all 35 hours periodic between passing initial LGV mod 4 and 09/09/2013 would result in a DQC expiry dated 10 years from passing the LGV mod 4 for both LGV & PCV so some time in july/august 2023

EXAMPLE
already got PCV acquired rights but no periodic done at all
Pass LGV mod 4 today 19/07/2013 - get DQC expiry dated 18/07/2018 LGV and 09/09/2013 PCV
complete all 35 hours periodic from 20/07/2013 to 09/09/2013 - get new DQC expiry dated 18/07/2023 for both LGV & PCV

Personally I think they have it wrong due to the recent EU directive and both will get expiry dated 09/09/2018 but who am I to argue with the experts !!

Thanks ROG for another very informative response, especially for taking the time to make enquiries on my behalf.

I agree that the “expert” is wrong - you can’t get 10yrs on your ticket whatever you do.

Not currently driving any PCVs or LGVs commercially. In fact I never have done yet. Acquired D1 in 2005 whilst a police officer. They wanted me to drive riot vans with high seating capacities but shortly after passing I was moved to a different role. Not done any periodic CPC as until now had no intent to drive large vehicles commercially.

So no probs letting 10th sept pass and my PCV CPC to lapse. In this scenario, do I lose grandfather rights to initial CPC and have to do mod 2 and 4 for cat D or is it simply I have initial CPC for life and just need 35hrs periodic CPC to reset the 5 year clock.

Best plan might be to reschedule lorry mod 4 for 11th sept or similar date, then do 35hrs CPC asap after that, putting 5 years on my ticket whichever way you look at it. Obviously I would ensure that I didn’t drive PCVs commercially after 10th sept until 35hrs complete.

More complex than I thought.

Paul-Litton:
Thanks ROG for another very informative response, especially for taking the time to make enquiries on my behalf.

I agree that the “expert” is wrong - you can’t get 10yrs on your ticket whatever you do.

Not currently driving any PCVs or LGVs commercially. In fact I never have done yet. Acquired D1 in 2005 whilst a police officer. They wanted me to drive riot vans with high seating capacities but shortly after passing I was moved to a different role. Not done any periodic CPC as until now had no intent to drive large vehicles commercially.

So no probs letting 10th sept pass and my PCV CPC to lapse. In this scenario, do I lose grandfather rights to initial CPC and have to do mod 2 and 4 for cat D or is it simply I have initial CPC for life and just need 35hrs periodic CPC to reset the 5 year clock.

Best plan might be to reschedule lorry mod 4 for 11th sept or similar date, then do 35hrs CPC asap after that, putting 5 years on my ticket whichever way you look at it. Obviously I would ensure that I didn’t drive PCVs commercially after 10th sept until 35hrs complete.

More complex than I thought.

you will not be allowed to do initial PCV dcpc because you are already in the PCV periodic system - the system will not allow you to do a PCV initial for any other PCV category even if you have let the deadline for PCV periodic go by.

If you let the PCV period dcpc deadline go by then the moment you complete the periodic 35 hours for LGV the PCV commercial entitlement will kick back in and according to the experts I called both the PCV & LGV will have the same DQC expiry date of 10 years from when you passed LGV module 4

You can take and pass the PCV cat D test but will only need to do module 3 which is the road drive and reverse because you have already got a pass on the PCV theory as you have passed the PCV D1 DSA test

Taking D in auto will get you D manual if you have LGV C manual on licence

It will not matter if you pass LGV mod 4 now or in a few months because the same thing will happen so get it done ASAP if you want to start commercially driving LGVs

Please remember that the DCPC and the licence are two separate issues so you can have what categories you like on the licence but being able to use them commercially requires the driver to be current in the relevant periodic dcpc system

I hope that cleared everything up but if not then I will try to explain differently

I have PSV and HGV 2

Monday 22nd July I start a week of periodic CPC (35 hours periodic)

I have to do 2 specific modules of 7 hours each to cover HGV and PSV

The PSV deadline is THIS September and HGV NEXT September. After my 35 hours next week with the 2 modules to cover PSV and HGV my CPC date will be aligned so they BOTH run out 2019. THis is a one time event only to align the PSV and HGV dates so that drivers with both licences can get them together.

alder:
I have PSV and HGV 2

Monday 22nd July I start a week of periodic CPC (35 hours periodic)

I have to do 2 specific modules of 7 hours each to cover HGV and PSV

The PSV deadline is THIS September and HGV NEXT September. After my 35 hours next week with the 2 modules to cover PSV and HGV my CPC date will be aligned so they BOTH run out 2019. THis is a one time event only to align the PSV and HGV dates so that drivers with both licences can get them together.

You could do all 35 hours in PCV or LGV courses or a mixture as they will count for both in your case

As you have acquired rights for both then as a one off you can do the next set of 35 hours over 6 years instead of 5 years which is the period from 09.09.2013 to 09.09.2019

Suddenly it makes sense (sigh of relief as the penny’s finally dropped) now it has been explained as a one-off arrangement to align CPC for PCV and LGV. Before this explanation I was certain this was erroneous as I couldn’t fathom how a figure above 5 years could be achieved. In light of this, my plan is to pass lorry mod 4 this month, then cram 35hrs periodic CPC in before 10th Sept deadline, then have virtually the longest validity on DQC of any driver in the EU. Many thanks for your time and expertise.

Paul-Litton:
Suddenly it makes sense (sigh of relief as the penny’s finally dropped) now it has been explained as a one-off arrangement to align CPC for PCV and LGV. Before this explanation I was certain this was erroneous as I couldn’t fathom how a figure above 5 years could be achieved. In light of this, my plan is to pass lorry mod 4 this month, then cram 35hrs periodic CPC in before 10th Sept deadline, then have virtually the longest validity on DQC of any driver in the EU. Many thanks for your time and expertise.

If you have no intention of commercially driving PCVs for a few months then I would opt to do the 35 hours in October to avoid the possible pre September rush - the end result will be the same on the DQC expiry dates

Same as above if you did 7 hours a year for the next 5 years or all 35 in August 2018

Are you sure that the DQC would expire 10 years after passing LGV Mod 4 if I let PCV periodic CPC lapse?

Assume I passed Mod 4 C initial CPC later this month. If I completed 35 hours of periodic CPC ending on 9th Sept 2013, this would satisfy my PCV requirements only up to 10th Sept 2013, but LGV to July 2018. So if the rule was to align using the earlier expiry date, I would essentially lose out on 5 years’ worth of periodic CPC (by being forced to do 70 hours in approximately 5 years). I believe this is what they are trying to address with this one off alignment event. Seeing as I would otherwise “lose out” on approx. 5 years, they would remedy this by adding 5 years on, giving a total of approx. 10 years before periodic CPC required again.

However, still assuming I pass Mod 4 LGV initial CPC later this month, if I were to allow PCV CPC to lapse, then do 35 hours periodic CPC in October as suggested, the earlier expiry date would now be LGV (July 2018), with PCV being updated until October 2018. I would not really be “losing out” in that scenario as I wouldn’t be doing 35 hours soon before the clock reset if that makes sense. I may be wrong but can’t see how they could extend DQC to July 2023 in this case.

Paul-Litton:
Called the hotline and they stated that by doing all 35 hours periodic between passing initial LGV mod 4 and 09/09/2013 would result in a DQC expiry dated 10 years from passing the LGV mod 4 for both LGV & PCV so some time in july/august 2023

Has anyone called the hotline and asked a similar question, but instead of doing 35 hours periodic between passing mod 4 (july 2013) and 09/09/2013, let’s say completing 35 hours on 15th October 2013? It seems to me a different scenario. I would expect DQC to expire in 2018.

Please could someone provide me with the hotline number / an email address / postal address for the relevant authority so I can contact them directly, as I would rather have it in writing. If we’re not allowed to post phone numbers etc on here, a simple web search for Paul Litton driving school will bring up my details, and you can email me directly.

Thanks

I fully understand why you would want to avoid doing another 35 hours.

But had it not occurred to you that there may actually be a value in the training and, regardless of what you have to do - or don’t have to do, it’s a really good plan to get all the training you can.

I would be amazed if anyone agreed with me and I suppose my tongue is now firmly in cheek!

Pete

On reflection if I do 35 hrs periodic after PCV has lapsed, that would still entail doing 70hrs in approx 5 years when you take the LGV into consideration. Its just whether the authorities would penalise for letting the periodic lapse.

Evidently I could use a lot of training in understanding CPC requirements, Peter. Perhaps 35 hours before 10th Sept!

Training is a funny old game. In various jobs I have worked, including police, probation service and a primary school it was brilliant. I got paid a handsome wage for attending, and didn’t have to make up the lost time in normal duties. As a self-employed sole trader, its horrible. I have to pay to attend, lose a day’s business but still have fixed costs to cover.

We all benefit from training. I would do all the courses going if I didn’t lose out financially. First aid for example I think is vital for a driving instructor. Thankfully I have 2 valid first aid certificates from other employment, but still vould highly value a first aid refresher course. We don’t have any compulsory professional development in our profession. They tried to push it through but there was too much resistance. They were going to count anything within reason (unlike the DCPC approved courses) so I think most ADIs would have classed having a moan about the DSA to each other at the test centre as “reflective learning session with other ADIs” as ticking the boxes.

The rules are a bit arbitray though, you must admit. Someone who is 2 years older than me that passed car test at 17 is deemed competent driving 7.5t lorries, minibuses, and B+E combinations (just talking about licencing, not driving commercially) whereas I was deemed incompetent. Likewise I am deemed competent at keeping illegal immigrants out of buses (exempt PCV mod 4) but incompetent at keeping them out of lorries (not yet passed LGV mod 4).

Paul-Litton:
Are you sure that the DQC would expire 10 years after passing LGV Mod 4 if I let PCV periodic CPC lapse?

Assume I passed Mod 4 C initial CPC later this month. If I completed 35 hours of periodic CPC ending on 9th Sept 2013, this would satisfy my PCV requirements only up to 10th Sept 2013, but LGV to July 2018. So if the rule was to align using the earlier expiry date, I would essentially lose out on 5 years’ worth of periodic CPC (by being forced to do 70 hours in approximately 5 years). I believe this is what they are trying to address with this one off alignment event. Seeing as I would otherwise “lose out” on approx. 5 years, they would remedy this by adding 5 years on, giving a total of approx. 10 years before periodic CPC required again.

However, still assuming I pass Mod 4 LGV initial CPC later this month, if I were to allow PCV CPC to lapse, then do 35 hours periodic CPC in October as suggested, the earlier expiry date would now be LGV (July 2018), with PCV being updated until October 2018. I would not really be “losing out” in that scenario as I wouldn’t be doing 35 hours soon before the clock reset if that makes sense. I may be wrong but can’t see how they could extend DQC to July 2023 in this case.

Paul-Litton:
Called the hotline and they stated that by doing all 35 hours periodic between passing initial LGV mod 4 and 09/09/2013 would result in a DQC expiry dated 10 years from passing the LGV mod 4 for both LGV & PCV so some time in july/august 2023

Has anyone called the hotline and asked a similar question, but instead of doing 35 hours periodic between passing mod 4 (july 2013) and 09/09/2013, let’s say completing 35 hours on 15th October 2013? It seems to me a different scenario. I would expect DQC to expire in 2018.

Please could someone provide me with the hotline number / an email address / postal address for the relevant authority so I can contact them directly, as I would rather have it in writing. If we’re not allowed to post phone numbers etc on here, a simple web search for Paul Litton driving school will bring up my details, and you can email me directly.

Thanks

DSA DCPC hotline number is 0191 201 8112 ( mon to fri 9am to 5 pm) but make sure you give them the exact details
I informed them that the driver had PCV acquired rights and passed LGV module 4 today and had not done any periodic dcpc hours
My question was - when the driver completed the 35 hours what would be the expiry dates on the DQC for PCV & LGV ?

Passing LGV initial gives the driver 5 years on the DQC for LGV so completing 35 hours of periodic dcpc then adds another 5 years to that expiry date - that happens no matter at what point during those 5 years the last of the 35 hours is done

Letting the PCV expiry date of 09/09/2013 go by has the effect of suspending the PCV commercial driving entitlement until 35 hours are completed and when they are, the 5 year clock for PCV resumes from the date of passing the last 7 hours of the 35

If they left it like that then the two will not have the same expiry dates so in order to align them the DSA hotline staff informed me that they will align both to the LGV expiry date which is in effect 10 years from passing LGV module 4

If you call them and get a different answer please inform me so I can re-address this with them - thanks

Peter Smythe:
I fully understand why you would want to avoid doing another 35 hours.

Which ever way he does it the result will be the same unless he does at least 7 hours PCV periodic before passing LGV mod 4

If he did that then that 7 hours done before the LGV got into the periodic system would not count and then completing the other 28 hours after passing LGV mod 4 would align both expiry dates to the PCV expiry date

Doing that would mean a shorter dual expiry date on the DQC

I think that is why the hot line triple checked with me that no periodic hours had been done so far

Well Rog you were spot on mate. I started my week CPC training today and as you said in my case I just need to do a straight 35 hours. No specific modules etc. as I have a HGV 2 and this covers the specific module you have to do if I was PSV only. So after this week I will be covered for both PSV and HGV until 2019

Thanks again for all your help fellows. Been too busy to phone the hotline so far, but appears you are spot on with what you’ve said. Also some excellent advice on Trucknet for passing Mod 4, hopefully it goes to plan in a few days…

Hi all new to here I have a full category d and d1 I passed in Oct 2015 if I want to go for my lorry licence do I need to do the theory and hazard part I also have my CPC card thanks scott