Introduction to a couple of 8-speed gearboxes WITH PICS....

[dieseldave]

Here's a couple of fairly common 8-speed gearbox types, with pics and a deliberately non-technical introductory explanation.

This post is designed to remove the fears associated with driving with an 8-speed LGV gearbox for the first time.
With good tuition and some practice, you'll find that it will quite quickly become as familiar as any other gearbox that you already know.
GOOD LUCK.


First up is: the "slap-over" gearbox:

I'd suggest that it's best to think of these two lots of four gears as being arranged "side by side."

Operation.
Neutral is much wider in a left and right sense than a normal gearbox. To save getting all those gears mixed-up, there's a springy bit about half way across the neutral. To start off, make sure that the gearstick is in the left hand side of the gearbox, then use gears 1 - 4, which will get you to 15-20ish mph. After you've used 4th gear, go into neutral, then pull the gearstick to the right, overcoming the springy bit, whilst staying in neutral. Then you'll hear a "clunk," then you push the gearstick forwards into 5th and carry on as you'd expect.

When changing down through the gears, come down as far as 5th, then come back into neutral, then push the gearstick to the left, overcoming the springy bit, then use the left side of the gearbox beginning with 4th to continue slowing down.

.................................................................................................................................

Next up is the "four over four" gearbox.
(Sorry about the hand, it was very sunny for a change!!)

I'd suggest that it's best to think of these two lots of four gears as being arranged "four over four." (See pics below for meaning.)

Operation.
To start off, make sure that the switch on the front of the gearstick is down:

Use gears 1 - 4, all with the switch "down," which takes you to 15-20ish mph.

Then, whilst in 4th gear move the switch to the up position like this:

Next, move the gearstick into neutral, you'll then hear a "clunk," which means that 1st gear has now become 5th gear, so carry on up to 8th as you'd expect. The "clunk" means that you're now in the "top half" of the gearbox. Now you can see why the gear numbers on the top of the gearstick are not arranged like the "slap-over" gearbox.

When changing down through the gears, come down as far as 5th, then whilst in 5th, move the switch to the down position, then move the gearstick into neutral (wait a moment for the "clunk") and you'll find that you've "switched" into the "bottom half" of the gearbox. (8th has now become 4th etc.)

In practice, with this type of gearbox, you might be in 7th and need to stop the vehicle. That's fine, just stop and apply the handbrake. Then move the gearstick switch to the down position before going into neutral, then you'll be in the right "range" to start off again. Experienced drivers sometimes forget to do this- myself included Last tip: don't change the range and go for a gear too fast, because you might miss the gear altogether due to some range changers being slower than others.

There are other hints and tips with this type of gearbox, but I'm leaving these to your instructor to avoid any possible confusion.
They'd be difficult and lengthy to write anyway.

I hope this is helpful and calms any initial fears you might have.

[ROG]

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[dieseldave]

great post Dave.
I have included a link in the "Pre training tips you may find useful" post.

Thanks for that ROG.

It might be helpful if some of the guys reading it would make a comment as a feedback. Things like: was it helpful? was it understandable? too technical? not enough/too many pics. Then the next explanation of something could be written in a way that people find easier.

[ROG]

It might be helpful if some of the guys reading it would make a comment as a feedback. Things like: was it helpful? was it understandable? too technical? not enough/too many pics. Then the next explanation of something could be written in a way that people find easier.

Feedback on the above will help me to compile better posts in the future as well

[The Declaration]

As a person whom has never been in the cab of an LGV I think the thread is excellent very well written and easy to understand with the pics, others may give you different feedback but that is my opinion.

[dieseldave]

As a person whom has never been in the cab of an LGV I think the thread is excellent very well written and easy to understand with the pics, others may give you different feedback but that is my opinion.

Many thanks for that. I personally welcome all feedback, whether good, bad or indifferent.
I find that it's an important tool for improving the quality of information.

[chrisy boy]

Bang on,on of the most useful threads on this site,ive used both of the ones youve posted and also a 16 gear range changer(although you dont really need it un-less your on the drag).Wished youd have posted this a couple of years back,when i was a newbie.I got sent out in 4 over 4 one morning,at silly-oclock and there was no-one in the depo to show me how to use one! i spent 25 minutes stuck in 4th gear,panicking trying to slap it over and all sorts,i was about to turn around and head back to depo and wait for some-one who could show me,when by pure luck i hit the switch and hey presto! sussed it.It was a cold saturday morning and i had to pick-up the keys from the security office,because the traffic office didnt open till 8am.Would have looked a right prat if i hadnt found the switch, Maybe you could put a thred for some of the auto-boxes for all us class 1 wanabees sometime i definetly wouldnt want to make same mistake in a artic! you cant always ask other drivers,especially if your on the 3.30 saturday morning run!

[talisman]

thank you dave.

I have just passed class 2 in a 4 over 4 box and was a little concerned about slapover boxes as i have never even seen one. This post makes perfect sense to me and now i understand how to use it.

This means that the first time i get an agency job with a slapover i wont have to ask the ultimate noob question "erm....how does it work??"

Cheers, very understandable.

[sandman]

Thats how i need to read information like that Dave, laymans, great post.

[truckerjimbo]

Great post Mate

One question. Whats the "C" postion used for??

Thanks

Jim

[mataos32]

Great post Mate

One question. Whats the "C" postion used for??

Thanks

Jim

crawler gear jim. you use it when fully loaded and you want to make a hill start (it is such a low gear that it will basically let you pull away on tickover fully freighted) or when you need to drive slowly and controlled.

[Big Nige]

Hi Dave, Yes mate thats spot on. I have used the slap over gears and your description is spot on. Not used 4over4 yet but that info is most useful. Thanks for taking the time to explain to us newbies mate.

Nige

[dieseldave]

I'd just like to say a big thank you to everybody who's left a feedback.

THANK YOU

It really does help me to get this type of post just right.... So it's much appreciated.
Thanks again.

[The Lyonator]

Hi there,

Really like the descriptions of the different types of manual gearboxes that you can expect to encounter driving LGVs.

However, the LGV industry now seems to be following the path of the "Automated" Manual (semi-automatic, clutchless manual) gearbox due to the fact it saves weight, driver concentration and fuel!

Can you see manual gearboxes being cast into the history books, especially with MAN and Iveco now supplying the ZF AS Tronic (sold as the TipMatic and EuroTronic respectivly) transmission as standard across most of their ranges with a manual gearbox option no longer available?

Personally I can see it happening, as Buses have not had clutch pedals for almost 40 years and these AMTs will be snapped up by Coach companies on the double, so I can even see the PCV industry not having any clutch pedals soon as well!

Richard

[dieseldave]

Hi there,

Really like the descriptions of the different types of manual gearboxes that you can expect to encounter driving LGVs.

Thanks for the comment, I stuck to straightforward descriptions of gearboxes likely to be found in driving school trucks by the new guys and it seems to have worked.

However, the LGV industry now seems to be following the path of the "Automated" Manual (semi-automatic, clutchless manual) gearbox due to the fact it saves weight, driver concentration and fuel!

Can you see manual gearboxes being cast into the history books, especially with MAN and Iveco now supplying the ZF AS Tronic (sold as the TipMatic and EuroTronic respectivly) transmission as standard across most of their ranges with a manual gearbox option no longer available?

Personally I can see it happening, as Buses have not had clutch pedals for almost 40 years and these AMTs will be snapped up by Coach companies on the double, so I can even see the PCV industry not having any clutch pedals soon as well!

Richard

Those are very interesting points. Not being of the bus fraternity, I have to ask whether you mean the pre-select type gearbox?? (Wasn't that in a Leyland with a TL12 engine??) I remember them, but I've never driven one. (Please excuse my ignorance of bus "stuff.") As a general point, I think the various types of auto boxes might take more market share, but to balance that I also think that there'll always be some demand for manual boxes. There's one old dinosaur (me) who hasn't had the benefit of any training or knowledge of the modern auto type boxes. My own opinion is that I think I'd prefer a manual box, but I recognise that I'm very probably biased due to my own lack of knowledge of auto boxes.

Just to put this into some sort of perspective, the truck with the "slap-over" box in the photo was registered in February of this year. It's an Iveco 18tonner hired in by an LGV driving school whilst their new truck is on order. The truck with the 4 over 4 box is owned by the same LGV driving school. IMHO, it might be some time before driving schools buy trucks that have auto boxes, but I'm always prepared to be wrong...

Your question about manual gearboxes and history books might provoke something of a "debate" in the PDF.
Why not give it a whirl?? I bet there'd be lots of opinions on that one. You'd get better answers than I could give- that's for sure...

That's a good question: Does anybody know of an LGV driving school that already has trucks with some kind of auto gearbox??
Another question: Would an auto box meet the DSA's spec for a driving school truck?? - I honestly don't know.

[8wheels]

Would passing your test in an auto truck not give you a restricted licence, the same as if you do it in an automatic car?

[The Lyonator]

Aye, passing in a vehicle with an automated manual transmission (i.e. Volvo I-Shift, ZF AS Tronic, and etc.) will restrict you to vehicles with automatic transmission (Restriction Code: 78 ).

In the bus industry there's plenty of 78 Restricted licences because of the fact that buses haven't had clutches for about 4 decades! Now that AMTs are here I can guess that the Coaching side will start taking people on with 78 Restricted licences - a coach company I have recently applied to join has just renewed its fleet and all of their manuals have been replaced with Volvo I-Shifts - so they can now take on people with a 78 Restricted licences as the whole fleet now has Two-Pedal operations!

I agree with dieseldave that manuals should still exist - I myself cannot truly appreciate what kind of a difference a gearbox without a clutch does because it's all I've ever had the chance to drive. I suppose the most experience I have of driving manuals was during the Driving School...and that's probably about it!

Even tiny citycars can now be supplied with an AMT for a £500 optional extra! But personally I can't see the Car industry falling the same way as the Commercial Vehicle industry - cars will still have clutches for years and years. Mind you in America they sell cars with autos as standard!

If anyone does know of a Driving School that offers tuition in a vehicle with an automated manual gearbox could you please let me know!? Thanks.

Richard

[The Lyonator]

My prefered manual is the "four over four" gearbox, the slap-over version always got me confused! The four over four just seemed easier to use and remember - only 4 gear ports, whereas the slap-over is all over the place! Always kept on getting curfuddled!

I did notice that where I was so use to driving autos that I had to sequential gear change when slowing down - for example, I'd start slowing down for a red traffic light and half-way through it'd change to green...I'd try to pull away in the gear I was using before braking, so I always had to go 1 cog down all the time as otherwise I wouldn't have a clue what gear to use!! This caused my instructor to moan at me for using the gearbox to slow down, but then also went on about the good ol' days when the brakes were weak that you HAD to use the gearbox to slow yourself down! Luckily none of my exams resulted in me even being marked a driving fault for using the gearbox when slowing down, they always mentioned the fact that I didn't need to - but that the DSA don't recognise it as a fault because you're "technically" not doing anything wrong, you're just simply using the gearbox!

I do the same in my car, strange I know as there's only 5 gears...but believe me, I pulled up at a roundabout in 4th gear and "Attempted" very unsuccessfully to pull away in 4th gear! Completely forgot to use that 3rd pedal and that weird looking stick in the middle!!

Maybe I'm just losing it!?

Richard

[Denis F]

If anyone does know of a Driving School that offers tuition in a vehicle with an automated manual gearbox could you please let me know!? Thanks.

does an AMT gearbox meet the minimum test vehicle standards - ( at least 8 forward ratios) ?

[The Lyonator]

Well on that I really couldn't say as after reading the DT1 form given to the examiners the MTV section doesn't actually say that automatic transmissions are exempt, it simply says "Ratios - 8".

However, common sense would tell me that if you turned up in an AMT or an Allison automatic then you wouldn't have to worry. It would be funny it that were the case, as the maximum gear ratios that can be found on an Allison automatic is Seven and that's for the really heavy rigs...otherwise it's common to get Six of Five speed Allison autos!

But I'm pretty sure that if you turned up in an automatic of Any kind that you'd be exempt from the Ratio requirement, especially as the Gear Changing exercise is not performed on a vehicle classified as an auto.

Richard

[The Lyonator]

By the way, I should mention that C1 and C1+E tests do not have the requirement for a set number of Gear Ratios - they are exempt.

Richard

[gerontius]

Dave - thanks, a really helpful & well-written article. Thanks for all the info on the twin-splitter gearbox too !

[dieseldave]

Dave - thanks, a really helpful & well-written article. Thanks for all the info on the twin-splitter gearbox too !

Hi gerontius, Many thanks for your comment.

Info on twin-splitters-- my pleasure. I hope it works for you.

Good luck mate, and please let me know how you get on with it

[ROG]

If anyone does know of a Driving School that offers tuition in a vehicle with an automated manual gearbox could you please let me know!? Thanks.

does an AMT gearbox meet the minimum test vehicle standards - ( at least 8 forward ratios) ?

To get a manual licence you must pass your test by using the clutch for every gear change - DSA rules

[dieseldave]

To get a manual licence you must pass your test by using the clutch for every gear change - DSA rules

That's interesting ROG. All I remember on that subject was that the candidate had to show "competence" in the selection and use of "appropriate" gears. I don't have the latest DSA rule-book, so has that change been in for long??

Blimey, so if a candidate used a twin-splitter correctly, they'd fail?? IMHO, that seems a bit daft to me, since a twin-splitter requires some "real" skill. I suppose rules are rules after all though...

[The Lyonator]

Hello,

I've just been reading through the DT1 form given to DSA examiners and this is what the official guidelines state regarding automatic transmissions:

<<
6.8 VEHICLES WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
A vehicle with automatic transmission is defined in regulations as `A vehicle in which the gear ratio between the engine and the wheels can be varied only by the use of the accelerator or brakes'. In general a vehicle without a manual clutch is regarded as an automatic.

The following points of driving technique are common to all automatic systems:

HANDBRAKE
The handbrake should be applied for temporary stops, e.g. waiting at a red traffic light, a junction, or in a traffic hold-up, if they are likely to be of a long duration
Short stops may not require the application of the handbrake
The handbrake may need to be applied to prevent `creep'
Faults committed in these cases should be recorded at Handbrake

FOOTBRAKE AND ACCELERATOR
The use of the right foot for both brake and accelerator pedals has considerable safety advantages. It is therefore recommended practice for normal driving, but is not necessarily applicable to disabled drivers. The use of the left foot on the brake pedal should not however be marked as a fault unless it involves the use of the footbrake against the accelerator
The use of both feet when manoeuvring in a confined space is acceptable if carried out correctly, i.e. speed is properly adjusted so that no large throttle opening or heavy braking pressures are involved.
Any fault should be recorded at footbrake and/or Accelerator, or in the 'control' box if it occurs in the reversing, reverse parking, or turn in the road exercise

6.9 PARTICULAR DRIVING SYSTEMS

FULLY AUTOMATIC SYSTEM
This type has selector settings for forward and reverse, neutral and/or park. It also has settings which enable the driver to select and retain a particular gear ratio or range of gear ratios, e.g. to obtain engine braking when descending a steep hill, although gear changes are normally made automatically. Most automatics of this type enable the driver to make an immediate change into the lower gear, to obtain extra acceleration, by means of `kick down' or part throttle operation actuated by the accelerator pedal. In nearly all cases the selector lever is mounted on the floor or the steering column in the position normally occupied by the gear lever, but there are exceptions, e.g. a panel of press buttons on the facia.

SEMI-AUTOMATIC SYSTEMS
With these the driver has to select the gear required by movement of the gear lever as with a manually controlled gearbox, but there is no clutch pedal. For driving test and licensing purposes these vehicles are regarded as automatics.

PRE-SELECTOR SYSTEMS
In these the gear is selected, before it is required, by manual movement of a selector lever, which is normally mounted on the steering column. When required, the gear is engaged by a single depression and release of the gear-change pedal, which is situated where the clutch pedal would be on an orthodox transmission.

6.10 `THE CLUTCH' AND `GUIDOSIMPLEX'
These adaptations enable a vehicle to be driven in manual or automatic mode. The candidate can choose which mode to drive the vehicle in and if successful should be issued with the appropriate DSA10.
Disabled candidates may use the vehicle for a test in automatic mode as a means of overcoming their disability. If successful, the candidate should be issued with a restricted licence in the usual way.

6.11 CENTRIFUGAL CLUTCHES AND FREE-WHEEL DEVICES
Vehicles fitted with these devices do not fall within the definition of vehicles with automatic transmission. The use of a free-wheel device or centrifugal clutch in addition to a pedal-operated clutch is at the discretion of the candidate.

6.12 SUBARU `HILL HOLDER' CLUTCH
The `hill holder' clutch is fitted to manual versions of the Subaru Legacy estate and saloon models. Drivers are advised that when stopping on an incline they should take their foot off the brake pedal while keeping the clutch pedal depressed, this automatically engages the `hill holder' which prevents the vehicle from rolling back. To move off the driver selects first gear, releases the clutch and drives on in the normal way.
Note: If any doubt exist about whether a particular vehicle is a manual or automatic, advice should be sought from Technical Standards Branch at HQ. This enquiry should be made prior to the start of the test and the candidate informed of the decision before starting the practical drive.

6.13 CITROEN XM PARKING BRAKE
Citroen XMs are fitted with an `emergency and parking brake`. This brake is operated by the driver pushing in a control fitted under the offside face vent and depressing an additional foot pedal situated to the left of the clutch pedal on the manual model and to the left of the brake pedal on the automatic version. The parking brake is released by pulling out the control fitted on the dash.
The emergency brake can be operated by applying the additional pedal, which will operate the brakes without power assistance. Drivers are advised not to drive with the release control pushed in when driving normally.
>>

Hope this helps,

Richard

[sebgsmith]

As a person whom has never been in the cab of an LGV I think the thread is excellent very well written and easy to understand with the pics, others may give you different feedback but that is my opinion.

Well done Dave...excellent post!

I read some post earlier regarding gearboxes and must admit I was bit taken back and then the fear set in!

From reading this post it gives me a clear idea of what to expect and is very helpful.

If I have to say something bad about this post its that its prob made me more excited to get my training under way, and now you prob wont hear me quiet

Cheers again.

[Kiowan]

I think Scania deserve a special mention for deciding to be the bane of all new drivers and go for a 12 speed 3 over 3 box with 1st gear in the bottom left and the splitter button where the rangechange usually is on a Rigid scania Needless to say I felt like a right pratt trying to drive one after driving 3 different 4 over 4s and one "slapover"

[Jed]

Thanks DIESELDAVE - very informative - a great help

[NEJ]

On this one Dave as a "Golden Oldie" who has been at it for many more
moons than I care to remember the info was superb and easy to follow in the directions and the only one I thought was a bit different was the "4 over 4" which I have always called a "Range Change" gearbox but each to their own as a newbie would soon pick it up with the photos and explanations.

As for the "auto" boxes I now drive an MAN with an auto or manual switch "without a clutch pedal" as the gear lever is on the steering column so it wouldn,t be suitable for the test.

Although the gearchange exercise has now gone if you had a "manual" licence for a PSV or HGV and took a test in one or the other you weren,t required to do the g/change exercise as you already had a "manual" licence.

Also if you passed the test you were given a pass ticket with a "manual" licence even if you took the test in an automatic g/box!