Hi all
One of my tramper drivers is demanding to be paid nights out if he is in the yard or not.
I have explained that we only pay nights out when they are away from base but he wont accept this.
He is now demanding £140 by next friday for nights out when he was in the yard.
Is it unreasonable for me not to pay nights out when the driver is in the yard?
I have not heard any company paying nights out when your in the yard.
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Not unreasonable at all. If the driver was back at the yard he has the option of going home. It was his decision to kip in the wagon. Most firms I drove for had a 25 mile rule, if you are within 25 miles of the yard you don’t get nights out unless agreed with management.
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We were paid in the yard if they wanted safe parking, loaded with tyres or something. I only lived 6 miles away but have slept in the yard at times
nsmith1180:
Not unreasonable at all. If the driver was back at the yard he has the option of going home. It was his decision to kip in the wagon. Most firms I drove for had a 25 mile rule, if you are within 25 miles of the yard you don’t get nights out unless agreed with management.Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk
The 25 mile rule is for tax purposes isn`t it? A company can pay a “night out” if it chooses, but it can only be tax free if the driver is more than 25 miles from home base.
For the OP, it depends on what terms your driver was employed on Id say. If he was employed as a "tramper" (I hate that term) and was counting on night out money to make up his pay, then hes upset being in the yard all week. It shouldnt be like that, but it can be. Im not taking sides here, just showing how he may be thinking.
He is employed as a tramper. However we have other drivers that understand this policy and its in their employment contract( which he is getting tomorrow as he has only.been with us from 15rh Jan ).
We pay him for when he went home when there was no work and he has days when he just takes the truck for a PMI and does not delivery or collections.
He is a good worker and i dont want to lose him but we only have 2 trucks and cant afford to pay nights out when he is in the yard.
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Devils advocate again. Some drivers may find they get some delays on the way back to the yard. If they cant make it all the way in, theyll get their night out money. Youll pay out, and be behind in your work…
Ive no idea what your work is, but is there any way, when hes in the yard, you could send him out that evening rather than the next morning? He gets a night out, you get more work done maybe?
Thats probably too simplistic, but you get the idea Im sure.
Pay him his £140 and then replace him. This sends a clear message to other drivers at your place. Wanting payment for something you haven’t done is quite frankly ridiculous. It’s similar to demanding getting paid for 15 hours when you’ve only done 8 on the basis that you were available to do a 15.
If I am in the yard, I don’t expect to be paid. I have worked for firms where if I am held in the yard due to a problem (where I was expecting to run back out) they have paid me a night out as a “sweetener” - but I have never expected it.
If he wants to get paid (and you choose to) then you need to tax him on it as it is not tax free unless away from base…
the maoster:
Pay him his £140 and then replace him. This sends a clear message to other drivers at your place. Wanting payment for something you haven’t done is quite frankly ridiculous. It’s similar to demanding getting paid for 15 hours when you’ve only done 8 on the basis that you were available to do a 15.
How far would you take that? Zero hours contracts appeal to you at all? Customer goes quiet, so all drivers are sent home on no pay?
I`ll bet not.
In this case it seems to me it depends on
What the driver is expecting (nights out every night)
What is happening (nights out sometimes)
If he had a misunderstanding of his terms of employment, that should all become clear when the contract is offered for signature.
Franglais:
the maoster:
Pay him his £140 and then replace him. This sends a clear message to other drivers at your place. Wanting payment for something you haven’t done is quite frankly ridiculous. It’s similar to demanding getting paid for 15 hours when you’ve only done 8 on the basis that you were available to do a 15.How far would you take that? Zero hours contracts appeal to you at all? Customer goes quiet, so all drivers are sent home on no pay?
I`ll bet not.
In this case it seems to me it depends on
What the driver is expecting (nights out every night)
What is happening (nights out sometimes)
If he had a misunderstanding of his terms of employment, that should all become clear when the contract is offered for signature.
You are attempting to compare apples with oranges there Franglais. If the driver is contracted for x number of hours then he should be paid a minimum of x number of hours, that is not in dispute here, what is in dispute is a driver demanding payment for something that he/she hasn’t done. I’m employed as a tramper, if I’m home every night then it is what it is, I certainly would not expect my employer to pay me for nights away from home I’ve never had. If I choose to sleep in my lorry at my home depot then that’s down to me, why should my employer fund my personal preference?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favour of workers receiving fully what is due to them as a result of their labours, my disagreement is workers receiving payment for things they haven’t done. If we all went down that route we may as well call ourselves council workers! 
the maoster:
Franglais:
the maoster:
Pay him his £140 and then replace him. This sends a clear message to other drivers at your place. Wanting payment for something you haven’t done is quite frankly ridiculous. It’s similar to demanding getting paid for 15 hours when you’ve only done 8 on the basis that you were available to do a 15.How far would you take that? Zero hours contracts appeal to you at all? Customer goes quiet, so all drivers are sent home on no pay?
I`ll bet not.
In this case it seems to me it depends on
What the driver is expecting (nights out every night)
What is happening (nights out sometimes)
If he had a misunderstanding of his terms of employment, that should all become clear when the contract is offered for signature.You are attempting to compare apples with oranges there Franglais. If the driver is contracted for x number of hours then he should be paid a minimum of x number of hours, that is not in dispute here, what is in dispute is a driver demanding payment for something that he/she hasn’t done. I’m employed as a tramper, if I’m home every night then it is what it is, I certainly would not expect my employer to pay me for nights away from home I’ve never had. If I choose to sleep in my lorry at my home depot then that’s down to me, why should my employer fund my personal preference?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favour of workers receiving fully what is due to them as a result of their labours, my disagreement is workers receiving payment for things they haven’t done. If we all went down that route we may as well call ourselves council workers!
If the driver took the job on on the “understanding” hed be out (and paid) all week, I can see where he may be coming from. Looks like his idea of what the job would be, and how its turned out seem different.
Apples and Oranges? Im saying it is down to what is in a contract of employment or a job description. IF he believed he was on a contract to do max nights out and they weren`t there, maybe he feels aggrieved?
The written contract being offered him should sort out any misunderstandings.
The job was advertised at a tramping container job, we all know Jan and Feb are quite months.
We did mention the nights out last month and I paid him 6 nights out as a sweetener as he joined us just after xmas. he does not complain about the job and just gets on with it, he has spotted a few problems before they became problems that would cost downtime and repairs.
I did mention to him last month that we only pay nights out when he is away from base and he stated that this would be a ‘’ game changer ’ .
IF I give in and pay him his nights out while in the yard, I will have to do this for my other driver to keep things fair. also what next would he demand? could I be opening the flood gates for more demands.
I always pay my drivers if there is not work, or call them and say there no work so stay at home on pay ( which I have done)
Wednesday to Friday last week he sat outside Felixstowe port waiting for it to open on pay and nights out but I did not moan about the lack of earnings from the truck.
I don’t like the idea of him demanding something I believe he is not entitled to. I treat my driver fair and there are Friday afternoons when I gave them a early finish ( 2-3pm) as they have a late finish the week before.
If I was to pay them the nights out when in the yard then to pay for it I may have to change the way they work to pay for these N/Outs. like a second load on a Friday or running in on a sat morning unpaid.
I don’t like this idea as I feel I will be taking the pee.
We are only a small young company with 2 trucks and only 18 months old, we are not stobarts or maritime with huge pockets or bonuses
I’d just try and have a word with him, keep things professional and explain that you value him as a driver but you can’t pay him nights out when he’s at home. Tell him you’ll keep him out where possible but I don’t think you’re being at all unfair and if he’s willing to dig his heels in over this so soon after starting it makes me wonder what he’ll be like once his feet are firmly under the table so to speak.
Are you not supposed to be keeping some records ie receipts, to satisfy HMRC that he is actually incurring expenses to justify his flat rate tax exempt night out allowance? If you are paying him night out expenses when he is actually in the home operating centre from which he is based, then HMRC will question this. Not just that but they may potentially come after you as a company to pay tax on those payments.
Me and about 6/7 others sleep in our yard when we’re back there during the week but none of us ask for night out money , our boss would tell us to go F our self’s 
The Op’s worker is saving him self money by not going home so though teaties
Tell him straight NO and give him 3 options lump it or like it or door is that way , as a small company £25 ish is a lot of money when it don’t need to be paid out , like 25ltrs of fuel
I agree with AF1.
I think your problem has possibly been lack of clarity at the interview stage - he thinks he’s getting night out whatever, you meant only when out. And you really sent the wrong signal with the sweetener.
If you do pay him, then you can’t not do the same for the other driver, that’s totally unfair. However as cav551points out, night out can’t be paid from base. Just as an aside, our drivers all live within a ten mile radius of work.
I think as AF1 says, you will have to explain the situation and then it’s up to him if he stays or goes.
Unbelievable…op suggests ‘running in without pay on a sat morning’,another driver is happy to sleep in a yard away from home through the week without any recompense because ‘saves money going home’
If money’s that tight do you really have a viable business?
lynchy:
Unbelievable…op suggests ‘running in without pay on a sat morning’,another driver is happy to sleep in a yard away from home through the week without any recompense because ‘saves money going home’
If money’s that tight do you really have a viable business?
So would you if you have a 40mile round trip
hubman:
He is employed as a tramper. However we have other drivers that understand this policy and its in their employment contract( which he is getting tomorrow as he has only.been with us from 15rh Jan ).
We pay him for when he went home when there was no work and he has days when he just takes the truck for a PMI and does not delivery or collections.
He is a good worker and i dont want to lose him but we only have 2 trucks and cant afford to pay nights out when he is in the yard.Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
I understand you’re a small company but I really think you should have been quicker with the contract which may have helped avoid this. Also as Albion said, was it made clear nights out are not guaranteed?
If you are a small company has he taken a lower paid job compared to big companies because he doesn’t want to “be a number”? Whilst it shouldn’t be, has he then expected night out money to be part of his wages? maybe he has and then losing a couple of nights out a week, plus costs of traveling if he is a way from home soon adds up, if he is on “lower” pay. That could then be a “game changer”
kcrussell25:
hubman:
He is employed as a tramper. However we have other drivers that understand this policy and its in their employment contract( which he is getting tomorrow as he has only.been with us from 15rh Jan ).
We pay him for when he went home when there was no work and he has days when he just takes the truck for a PMI and does not delivery or collections.
He is a good worker and i dont want to lose him but we only have 2 trucks and cant afford to pay nights out when he is in the yard.Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
I understand you’re a small company but I really think you should have been quicker with the contract which may have helped avoid this. Also as Albion said, was it made clear nights out are not guaranteed?
If you are a small company has he taken a lower paid job compared to big companies because he doesn’t want to “be a number”? Whilst it shouldn’t be, has he then expected night out money to be part of his wages? maybe he has and then losing a couple of nights out a week, plus costs of traveling if he is a way from home soon adds up, if he is on “lower” pay. That could then be a “game changer”
The contract must be given to the employee within 2 months of start of employment, it was later than usual as our lawyer needed to update it with the pension option and legal updates.
We pay slightly more than other people in our sector and area, like EFS etc. It was made clear that he would be paid £££ plus nights out, I never stated that nights out are guaranteed as this is not the case.