Fanfare for the Commer man!

Heres a link to a really excellant Commer site from Howard Pettigrew in New Zealand. I hope you like it as much as I do! commer.org.nz/

Cue the “was the TS3 a dog or a miracle” debate restarting…

Happy New Year all, may it be filled with Classic Lorries and Modern Trucks!

A very interesting site Steve, despite the fact that listening to that 2-stroke powering by I lost the way back to TN and thus all the ‘everything since last visit’ posts :smiling_imp: .

Brought back memories of my days at Shaws of Stapleford, Nottingham after the takeover by C.E. Dormer of Leytonstone and that company’s incorporation of Coopers of Wednesbury. After driving various examples of Hedley Shaw’s fleet I was given one day a Commer 2 stroke diesel with straight through floor tractor to run the NE trunk’s trailer down to Wednesbury. Despite the assault on my ears I was well pleased to drive in the unaccustomed warmth after freezing in assorted Leylands and AECs :laughing: .

My first ever motor after passing my (car) test in 1963 was a Bantam Karrier in the Co-op Soft Drinks factory’s fleet. Got the job the same day I passed the test. No theory, just a short drive with the examiner in my old Standard Vanguard set me up for a lifetime (almost) of road transport :smiley:

Salut, David.

great site ghinzani, chheers for the link! :smiley: i cant say wherther the ts3 was a dog, as i dont have enough real world operational knowledge of them, but i think that, a, the 2 stroke is a good idea, and b, it sounds great!

i met reg cooper david, when he was retired i think, and i was working for johnny wilkes at the time and reg came into the yard. he gave me a litany of how drivers will kill your business every time! :laughing: you metioning coopers of wednesbury just reminded me!

Mal:
i met reg cooper david, when he was retired i think, and i was working for johnny wilkes at the time and reg came into the yard. he gave me a litany of how drivers will kill your business every time! :laughing: you metioning coopers of wednesbury just reminded me!

Yes, a hard taskmaster, his second in command was his son Graham.
Reg’s favourite pasttime was accusing drivers of ‘coffee-shopping it’ or rather ‘caffee shappeeng geet’. Best I can manage of a Wednesbury accent :laughing: .
He used to run night trunks from there to Hamilton. Often 60’ flats with Black Country Groupage, all low heavy type stuff never more than a couple of feet off the deck. Sheeted up in the dark they looked like long snakes.
If I ran the NE trunk trailer down from Nottingham, I’d spend the whole day traipsing round the area collecting for Hamilton. I hated it, it was chase, chase all day with him on the phone everywhere I went. Even if I got back well in advance of reasonable time I still had to go through the coffee shopping routine. :smiling_imp:
How long ago was that Mal, and did you ever hear of Graham or what became of the firm?

Salut, David.

i got the idea he was hard work dave pretty quick! he loved mauling the knackers off the drivers no doubt! :laughing: that would have been around 83 i think dave, i dont know anything about graham sorry, as for the firm, i know there was a coopers that had a yard that got closed for the m54 construction, that firm became k transport, if it’s the same coopers, i dont know!.

Cooper’s yard when I knew them was on the A41 just west of Wednesbury town centre I think, but this was back in the early 70s, just after he sold out to Charlie Dormer. Dormers allowed him to carry on more or less independantly but gave him us (Shaws) to look after. He used us as a staging post for his NE night trunk, but transferred a motor or two as well. For a time we were running Hedley Shaw’s old wagons (red & marroon), Dormer’s (green), and Reg’s (blue & red), all at the same time :open_mouth: .

In the interval after the Dormer takeover some of us had to spend each week in digs at Leytonstone servicing Charlie’s Calor Gas contract from his base there. I used to leave my wagon there at the weekend and come home and back in the car. At the end of it all I brought the car home on the trailer :wink:

Mentioning Calor Gas reminds me that I have a vague idea that Coopers became part of Air Products operation. Could be a connection there, just a niggle at the back of my mind :confused: :open_mouth: .

When I got fed up with Reg’s eccentricities I went to Ilkeston Haulage to see what nights were like. Only trouble was I could see the days as well - at the same time :unamused: :laughing:

Salut, David.

i think i remember the yard was on the hollyhead road yes dave, nice story, it’s good to hear tales about a firm you know!

When I got fed up with Reg’s eccentricities I went to Ilkeston Haulage to see what nights were like. Only trouble was I could see the days as well - at the same time

:laughing: :laughing:

I had the “privilege” of de-coking a TS3 in a Commer tractor unit back in the early 70’s. I can’t remember if I was still an apprentice or just out of my time (not that it matters) but I do remember making a frame to sit on the tyres at each side of the motor because of the amount of time taken laid half in and half out of the cab scraping the carbon out of the ports. Thankfully one of the other mechanics had experience on the Commers and told me about making a frame that sat on the tyre so you could support your legs. Otherwise you had to lay on the cab floor with the drivers seat removed with your legs dangling which did prove back breaking even to a young lad.
They were quite a reliable engine in the lighter end of the market best suited to the 10 - 16 ton rigid market or 20 -24 ton tractor unit market of the late 60’s and very early 70’s.

There’s only one way to de coke a TS3…the natural way.
So there’s this young ‘wet behind the ears’ driver coming over the Brecon Beacons one dark winter night in the late 50’s, just has a quick peep at the rear view mirror and… :open_mouth: :open_mouth: Shi*, it’s on fire. :open_mouth: So the young drivers stops and so does the fire :confused:
When I got home to Yorkshire and told old Fred Chappell he gave me a round of b*llockings and told me I should have revved it to within an inch of its life…"it was de-cokeing itself you daft bugga, :blush: :blush:

I bet this one got plenty of stick!

E771AAAF-FC67-4FEC-8798-25EB75C2A4B5.jpeg

Without a doubt the best named topic on Tnet ! I was a jockey to my cousin on a few in my youth, they were seriously loud !

Spardo:

Mal:
i met reg cooper david, when he was retired i think, and i was working for johnny wilkes at the time and reg came into the yard. he gave me a litany of how drivers will kill your business every time! :laughing: you metioning coopers of wednesbury just reminded me!

Yes, a hard taskmaster, his second in command was his son Graham.
Reg’s favourite pasttime was accusing drivers of ‘coffee-shopping it’ or rather ‘caffee shappeeng geet’. Best I can manage of a Wednesbury accent :laughing: .
He used to run night trunks from there to Hamilton. Often 60’ flats with Black Country Groupage, all low heavy type stuff never more than a couple of feet off the deck. Sheeted up in the dark they looked like long snakes.
If I ran the NE trunk trailer down from Nottingham, I’d spend the whole day traipsing round the area collecting for Hamilton. I hated it, it was chase, chase all day with him on the phone everywhere I went. Even if I got back well in advance of reasonable time I still had to go through the coffee shopping routine. :smiling_imp:
How long ago was that Mal, and did you ever hear of Graham or what became of the firm?

Salut, David.

I served my apprenticeship as a mechanic with the ERF dealer in Edinburgh , they also had a International Harvester dealership . I first recall Coopers Commers delivering IH crawler tractors into the dealership fitted with Drott hydraulic equipment manufactured by Rubery-Owen in Darslaston Staffs. They were nice easy loads for both the haulier and driver being loaded and tipped with a ramp.

You’ve quoted a very very old post there Shugg, and I’m not sure if I got an answer to my question. Where is Big Mal these days? Went off to start his own forum at some point I think.

Part of the answer to my question I already knew, because Coopers had been sold to C.(Charlie) E.Dormer of Leytonstone, the owners of Shaw’s of Stapleford, who I worked for. That’s how I became embroiled with Coffee Shop Reg. No need to phone the yard to give my eta each evening, I reckon they could hear me in that bloody Commer from Derby. :open_mouth: :imp:

coomsey:
Without a doubt the best named topic on Tnet ! I was a jockey to my cousin on a few in my youth, they were seriously loud !

Loud ? we had a 6 wheeler with a TS3 engine at Chappells and it only had one silencer box. :open_mouth:

Spardo:
You’ve quoted a very very old post there Shugg, and I’m not sure if I got an answer to my question. Where is Big Mal these days? Went off to start his own forum at some point I think.

Part of the answer to my question I already knew, because Coopers had been sold to C.(Charlie) E.Dormer of Leytonstone, the owners of Shaw’s of Stapleford, who I worked for. That’s how I became embroiled with Coffee Shop Reg. No need to phone the yard to give my eta each evening, I reckon they could hear me in that bloody Commer from Derby. :open_mouth: :imp:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

David

5thwheel:

Spardo:
You’ve quoted a very very old post there Shugg, and I’m not sure if I got an answer to my question. Where is Big Mal these days? Went off to start his own forum at some point I think.

Part of the answer to my question I already knew, because Coopers had been sold to C.(Charlie) E.Dormer of Leytonstone, the owners of Shaw’s of Stapleford, who I worked for. That’s how I became embroiled with Coffee Shop Reg. No need to phone the yard to give my eta each evening, I reckon they could hear me in that bloody Commer from Derby. :open_mouth: :imp:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

David

You can laugh David…but I can’t hear you. :unamused: :laughing:

A bit of TS3 and 2 Stroke nostalgia.

uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e0sLp7wvq60

uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yAHFD_8eD70

Thanks for the resurrection Malc, and the reminder of at least 4 long lost links with the past - Mal, Reg. Cooper, Commers and 2-strokes. :unamused: :laughing:

Whatever did happen to Mal - anybody know?

I did do alot of miles in TS3’s with my Dad in the 50’s/60’s they always went well, pulling and speed wise.
Not sure if i can put the following article on here but here goes.

Introduction:
written by Mr Donald Kitchen (see note below)
The build of the Rootes TS4 prototypes and subsequent development was undertaken by Rootes Group Diesel Engineering Division (part of Central Design, Coventry) which was located with the Rootes Group Manufacturing Plant, Tillings Stevens at Maidstone Kent.

The Rootes TS4 prototypes have the same bore and stroke as the Rootes 3DB-215 model TS3 (with an additional cylinder added) and use the same liners, pistons, conrods and rockers as the TS3.

It was however in the program to introduce improved material in production engines for the liners and fire rings and nitriding of crankshaft journals and rocker pins to extend the working life of the engine to a projected 250,000 miles .

Although the TS3 and TS4 are of the same basic design, the TS4 included many improvements - the most significant being the introduction of twin through bolts at either end of the rocker shafts (replacing studs that were used in the TS3). This modification ensured the crankcase was always uniformly in compression.

The improvements also included the installation of a Holset harmonic damper to the front of the TS4 crankshaft (internally), which permitted maximum revs to increase to 2,600rpm. The scavenge blower, water and oil pumps and oil filter were also upgraded to cover the increased capacity…

The History of TS OE 65

TS OE 65 (Two-Stroke, Oil Engine, #65) now owned by Mark Erskine was made at Tillings Stevens, Maidstone in 1966 and is one of 4 surviving prototype Rootes TS4, opposed piston, 2-stroke, scavenge blown, twin rocker beam, direct injection, water cooled diesel engines in the world today.

It is the only Rootes TS4 prototype in the world in private ownership, with the other three prototypes being in the care of significant British Museums.

The Diesel Engineering Division designated OE 65 as a “spare engine”, which meant it received only initial test bed running-in during the entire prototype program that saw the five other test bed engines set a target of 20,000 hrs running apiece and the eight Experimental Road Test Vehicles set a target of 300,000 miles apiece to complete.

The Rootes TS4 prototypes represent the pinnacle of achievement in high-speed diesel engine design from the mid to late 1960’s and even today, 200 hp and 465 ft lb.'s of torque from a 287 cubic inch diesel engine together with exceptional reliability, fuel efficiency and longevity is a remarkable achievement.

Had the TS4 made it to production, they were intended to replace the legendary Rootes TS3 opposed piston diesel engine in Commer trucks from the early 1970’s onwards, however Rootes Group’s deteriorating financial position in the 1960’s saw American automotive giant, Chrysler taking full control of the group in 1967, and this take-over brought about the demise of the Rootes TS4 project.

In addition to the Rootes take-over, Chrysler had also invested millions of pounds in a UK joint venture with ■■■■■■■ to produce new diesel engines (the disastrous ■■■■■■■ VALE V6 and V8) and had lucrative supplier agreements in place with Perkins for the supply of their 6.354 inline six cylinder and new 185 hp 510 cubic inch V8 diesel engines.
When Chrysler’s Management became aware of the prototype Rootes TS4’s extraordinary horsepower, torque, Power to weight ratio, reliability, fuel efficiency and low manufacturing cost, they realized there was nothing they (or other engine manufacturers) could offer that came remotely close to matching the Rootes TS4’s thoroughbred qualities.
Chrysler knew they would not sell Dodge / Commer heavy trucks with their new ■■■■■■■ VALE V6 or V8 (or Perkins V8) engines fitted if the TS4 became a production option, so Chrysler’s management of the day decided to terminate the TS4 project to safeguard their investment with ■■■■■■■ and Perkins.
As a result, all Rootes TS4 prototype engines, parts, dies, patterns, plans, drawings, test records, photo’s and fuel injection equipment were ordered to be scrapped under strict supervision by Chryslers management.
The actions of Chrysler’s management were profoundly unacceptable to Diesel Engineering Division personnel and key managers thankfully managed to save four prototype TS4 engines from destruction.

Three engines were eventually gifted to significant UK museums and the fourth engine (OE 65) was located by Chryslers Engine Development Department at Coventry.

Because the special pre-production C.A.V rotary/DPA pumps for the TS4 prototypes’s had already been scrapped, C.A.V (now Delphi) provided a pre-production TS4 spec inline F.I pump to Chrysler that was also modified to Diesel Engineering Division’s military specifications as a multi-fuel pump (enabling the engine to run on diesel, petrol, kerosene / jet fuel).

The inline pump was untidily adapted to the engine by Chrysler and the engine was run up on an engine dynamometer to insure correct horsepower and torque outputs were being achieved. To add insult to injury, OE 65 was then adapted to a generator to provide stand-by power in the Coventry factory in the event of winter power cuts!

With the generator requirement completed (and with less than 1,000 hours running completed), Chrysler once again consigned OE 65 to be scrapped.

Remarkably, OE 65 was rescued once again (by a former Diesel Engineering Division manager) and the engine was coated internally and externally with a paraffin based wax sealer to prevent corrosion and it went into storage.

It was then acquired by an engine design and development company in 1982 where it sat unused in their warehouse on its mobile engine trolley for over 20 years.

Even OE 65’s engine trolley is significant. It was originally built by Diesel Engineering Division at Maidstone, to wheel Rootes TS3 prototypes around their test-bed bay at Maidstone during the 1950’s and 1960’s.

This particular trolley was lengthened in the middle by Diesel Engineering Division in the mid 1960’s to accommodate the longer TS4 prototypes and is the only TS3/4 engine trolley known to have survived.

Although OE 65 is in “as-new” condition, it will be stripped to be extensively cleaned, checked and rebuilt with new oil seals and gaskets fitted prior to running up on a local engine dynamometer.

Once initial testing is completed, TS OE 65 will be installed into a fully restored Commer truck to receive regular use as originally intended by the Management and staff at Diesel Engineering Division. It will also be presented at truck shows as a working display

Acknowledgement:
The current owners of TS OE 65 are most grateful for the ongoing and invaluable assistance provided by former Diesel Engineering Division, Design Manager, Mr Donald Kitchen.

Mr Kitchen was Design Manager at Rootes Diesel Engineering Division (Based at Tillings Stevens factory, Maidstone) towards the end of the TS3 / 4 era and later he became Chief Engineer - Power Train with “Karrier Motors Ltd” after Chrysler took over in 1967 and closed down Diesel Engineering Division (terminating TS3 and TS4). Later he became Chief Engineer - Development with “Renault Truck Industries Ltd” and later again Chief Engineer - Technical Administration with the same company.

During the last two years, Mr Kitchen has kindly provided the current New Zealand owners of TS OE 65 with a wide range of completely unique technical and historical items and information on the Rootes TS4 prototypes and in particular, information specifically about the history of TS OE 65 (as described above).

Recently, Mr Kitchen also discovered several sets of extraordinarily rare, genuine, pre-production TS4 gaskets and has gifted them to the engines owners for use in TS OE 65’s imminent refurbishment.
At 84 years of age, Mr Kitchen remains very active in his retirement, enjoying a wide variety of interests and maintains regular contact with a number of his former colleagues from Diesel Engineering Division.