Guy

Evening Gentlemen, well a good day, the sun shines, my grass is growing, the flowers die on the ■■■■, the Swifts are feeding, and my loads of compost are being delivered. Now watching the antics of some of these lads in the “Euro spotlighted” 8wheelers, and their sheer size in relation to their payload, for surely they are not designed on the drawing boards, (sorry computers), of distant lands , to navigating across the fields of “Gods Country”, to tip, I was struck by just how good Fallings Parks Big J 8wheeler really were.

And as I sat beneath a spreading Chesnut, (counting the loads coming in), I mused about Guy, and just what a terrific lorry and bus manufacturer they really were! Remembering the Invincible 150LX ex LCP that the family ran, and how I yearned to drive her…(untill I had done several hundred “crashing” miles…and wondered if those wheels were square!! But Ron Thomas`s design was iconic…(from the outside), the top of the cab…a 1958 Chrysler Plymouth, and the bottom, a 57 Ford Thunderbird…but why could not Trevor Dudley have designed a chassis to match, no wonder he went to Girling…and “Skid Check”.

Then came William Lyons, and Jaguar, making fools of Harold Wilsons Governments ideas of "taking the factories to the workers", with the unsustainably long supply chain routes. William wanted everything within reach of Browns Lane, 1960 acquired Daimler from BSA for a bargain 3.4million. Recruited Cliff Elliott from Dodge, to design a Daimler lorry range, then Guy were on the market, in Administration, and snapped up for £800,000…what a gem! So Elliott goes to Fallings Park…and by 1964 out comes the rationalised Big J(jaguar) Range!

But not before the blood letting at Board level…you got Guy into this mess…you get it out, (if you stay…on reduced salaries…and no pension…“Tabula Rasa”, its a new start)!!! I love that managerial style…get off your bums and do it, if only it applied today!!!

Then there was the proposed ■■■■■■■■ Guy joint engine venture, which arguably was the driver for the creation of the AEC V8, the Mk3 Invincible, then quickly the rationalised Big J range. And over 5000 of them were built. Then at the age of 64, (so young), Sir William, (as he now was), sought the protection of a larger group for his “baby”. Seeking autonomy, within Group protection, he made a grave miscalculation, and the creation of British Motor Holdings in alliance with the "wheezing , and directionless BMC, was the result). But that gave Jaguar the funding for the XJ6, and attracted “Anoraks” pet hate Lord Stokes to buy the lot!

The rest is a tragedy…no investment, yet the plant made real money…along with Land Rover it was the only part of the Leyland Group that actually made “real” measurable, financial profit…even on the day of its closure in 1982, and it had a forward order book of 18months production!!! Business logic?

But what are your personal memories of Guy, its lorries, (and buses), did you drive them, run them, buy them, break them, sell them, or just like, or loath them■■? Personally I rate them, and the people who worked for them, for they were the ones badly served by Leyland.

Guy, the real gem of Leyland`s “Empire”,…or was it??

!

Nobody is biting… yet :laughing:
Cheers Dave.

May I say, that as usual “Saviem”,a very well crafted resume’ of the “rise and demise” of Guy Motors and although I only ran a handful of Big J’s at the twilight of their existence I did have occaision to contact Fallings Park about the oil capacity /lack of, in the Thorneycroft 6 speed box.They duly responded PDQ and sent a number of elbow bends for gearbox plug which increased the oil capscity.But I must say the guys (excuse the pun!) at Wolverhampton couldn’t have been more helpful at the time,unlike the tossers at Bathgate when we had some lumber with a Mastiff gearbox :cry: .Obviously, at the time I was in touch with Guys the writing was definitely on the wall and they were doomed.But I recall knowing a Guy owner in Kendal ( a ■■■■■■■) who ran one Guy Warrior Light 8,AEC 7:7, trailing axle out of Barrow Steel with payloads of 17ton,he packed in,suddenly, at the end of 1966 and his driver went to work in the local engineering works in Kendal and he sure could tell some tales of the 7 years he drove this Light 8 from new,never let him down he told me although it was operated on a shoe string :unamused: .The chap that owned the Light8 was actually the Cheuaffer? for the Chairman of Lakeland Laundries in Barrow,his father was the Co Secretary of The Provincial Insurance Co who’s Head office was in Kendal :blush: .I did attempt to buy the “A” licence off this Guy in ‘69 as it was still current although it had been parked up for 3 years,but Alas :frowning: too much time had elapsed so I didn’t manage to get my hands on said “A” licence,Enough :unamused: ,you’'ll all be going cross eyed! :blush: Cheers Bewick.

The Guy Big J’s were very popular in Ireland in the 1970’s. My father bought, sold and operated quite a few of them. They very immensely reliable and had a good back up in our area. Practically every local Co Op, haulier, own goods operator ran a Guy on its fleet. The AV505 was very popular. but the Gardner 180 was what we all wished for. The Guy ■■■■■■■ was a real flying machine in its day.

We always felt it was a shame the Guy was discontinued, as it had a great following, good value for money, easy to keep on the road, econmical to run and a good earning machine.

hiya,
Only drove the Roller engined ones for the BRS, they had lots, I quite liked them
and a good machine of the time I never had any downtime with them other than
for the regular servicing that the old “red and rust” were good at, some drivers
who took one out occasionally described them as having a “funny” driving position
but I never noticed that.
thanks harry, long retired.

Guy. A good “gaffers” lorry in its day, no doubt about that. Personally, never had much experience of them apart from the handful we had in Spillers. This was photographed during its last week of service after 7 years reliable running. It was based at Birkenhead mill(s).

Flour Milling 139.jpg

Smith of Maddiston had one of the largest fleets of Big J’s,during fleet renewal,which was a regular annual event,trailer after trailer used to either be collected ex Maddiston or came down overnight trunk and collected by the day drivers and delivered to which Depot they were allocated to,1 Big J,with a 240 Percy in it,was collected from Newton Le Willows Depot and driven to Manchester Depot,that was on my first day at Smith’s,I thought all my birthdays had come at once,what a flying machine that motor was,unfortunately,Harold Gilmore,the Depot Manager at Manchester took it off me not long after I started on nights,allocated me a 240 Percy,but in an ERF,again nice motor.

Happy days! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

David

Hi Saviem , in response to your post re the Guy marque, I had the pleasure of running a couple of Big J’s in the late 70’s which were purchased from a well known dealer local to me, having been run from new by H & M Transport from Oxford. They were J Reg i.e 1971 - 205 ■■■■■■■ ,6 speed AEC overdrive box( as fitted to Mandator) and hub reduction axle . Due to the position of the steering column in relation to the other controls I referred to driving them as being akin to driving an invalid carriage -remember them? with a 5th wheel coupling. However they did us proud until it was time to give them the BOC adjustables and despatch them for scrap. A good workhorse with potential! As you said investment where it was needed would and could have been spent on R & D !

We ran five in total. Two 1964 Guy Otter rigids with luton van bodies with Gardner 120 4 cylinder and one 1965 the same and two Big J tractor units with 180 Gardners.
The biggest problem we had was cab rot on the Otters, but one thing we discovered that caused us to carry on using them was the availability of parts. During the same time we ran Leyland group vehicles and parts were always problems, even ordering VOR. Service at the Leyland franchise parts departments were dreadful, and we dealt with many throughout the UK, however this was not the case with Guy which still traded as an independent company.
With regard to the Otters we were initially worried how we would locate spare parts when we needed them,as it was a relatively rare vehicle with not many buit, but soon found that we could open an account directly with Guy at Wolverhampton. When we wanted anything we just went down, or got a driver, who was passing to call at the factory in Wolverhampton and always everything was there directly off the shelf.
At the same time I remember we had a new Lynx that had gearbox problems and was towed into Ford and Slater at Leicester. We were greatly enthused to hear them tell us that they had six other vehicles parked up waiting for gearboxes and delivery was quoted at six months. Michael Edwards had just taken over at BL and appointed a new managing director (I forget his name) at Leyland trucks and that week there was an article in Commercial Motor saying how he intended to sort things out. My dad telephoned him; booking a person to person telephone call which was a service promoted by British Telecom at that time. Strongly within about half an hour dad was telling him our problem and he assured dad that there would be a gearbox at Ford and Slater within seven days, which there was.
However Guy had all parts available off the shelf. Leyland had so much to learn from Guy, but it was fools paradise in Lancashire as the company that ruined the British Commercial vehicle industry thought they had everything right, closing the likes of AEC and Guy.

Greetings,All.
Ref.Guys. When I joined UCC at Poplar,the fleet was a mixed bag.4 pot and 5 pot Gardners,Leyland Comets and Thames Trader Scammell coupling artics.Then,in 1968 we got an entire fleet of Guy Big J units with the AEC AV505 in and with Eaton two speeds.I cannot remember any serious downtime with at all,apart from the mirror arms fracturing the top of the door and failing Stop light switches.They pulled well and novelty - they had heaters that worked.They were heaven after the above mentioned vehicles.Infinitely better than the LAD cabbed Comet.I agree with these posts,they were a great motor at the time.
Regards to all,900x20. :smiley:

P.S. We also had Invincibles with the Gardner 150 engine and David Brown gearbox which were good too,after a Trader.900x20. :laughing:

The Big J was a great general fleet motor,and IIRC when it was fitted with a RR220 Eagle engine it became,along with the Seddon 32/4 with the same engine,the cheapest 32 ton fleet motor on the market in the later 60’s,early 70’s.The same criteria applied at Atkinson and ERF,their cheapest fleet motors for the large Oil co’s and big Supermarkets were their chassis fitted with the RR 220.Unfortunately it was only the likes of the Oil co’s,Supermarkets and BRS/NFC that could afford to run these (IMHO) obnoxious lumps of rubbish,but of course,the initial cost price suited the accountants at the various conglomerates,the actual costs of running said crap was not as important as it could be spread over a number of years within the accounts,but the lowest capital cost per unit at the outset was the main consideration.Cheers Bewick. :blush:

Bewick:
The Big J was a great general fleet motor,and IIRC when it was fitted with a RR220 Eagle engine it became,along with the Seddon 32/4 with the same engine,the cheapest 32 ton fleet motor on the market in the later 60’s,early 70’s.The same criteria applied at Atkinson and ERF,their cheapest fleet motors for the large Oil co’s and big Supermarkets were their chassis fitted with the RR 220.Unfortunately it was only the likes of the Oil co’s,Supermarkets and BRS/NFC that could afford to run these (IMHO) obnoxious lumps of rubbish,but of course,the initial cost price suited the accountants at the various conglomerates,the actual costs of running said crap was not as important as it could be spread over a number of years within the accounts,but the lowest capital cost per unit at the outset was the main consideration.Cheers Bewick. :blush:

Why is that Dennis were they bad on fuel ,unreliable or both ?

ramone:

Bewick:
The Big J was a great general fleet motor,and IIRC when it was fitted with a RR220 Eagle engine it became,along with the Seddon 32/4 with the same engine,the cheapest 32 ton fleet motor on the market in the later 60’s,early 70’s.The same criteria applied at Atkinson and ERF,their cheapest fleet motors for the large Oil co’s and big Supermarkets were their chassis fitted with the RR 220.Unfortunately it was only the likes of the Oil co’s,Supermarkets and BRS/NFC that could afford to run these (IMHO) obnoxious lumps of rubbish,but of course,the initial cost price suited the accountants at the various conglomerates,the actual costs of running said crap was not as important as it could be spread over a number of years within the accounts,but the lowest capital cost per unit at the outset was the main consideration.Cheers Bewick. :blush:

Why is that Dennis were they bad on fuel ,unreliable or both ?

Hiya “ramone”,the RR engine as far as tractor units were concerned (Automotive engines) IMHO were just noisy obnoxious lumps of uneconomical rubbish,if they’d been any good you would have seen them, appearing in quantity,in all the major haulage fleets of the era,did you,No ! Yes you always saw the odd one appear in the various hauliers fleets up and down the country but in the main it was only because there was a “financial one off inducement” or the particular haulier was so desperate at the time for a unit that there was no alternative to the RR engined chassis.Thankfully I was never placed in such an invidious postition otherwise I might have had to “top” myself( who’s cheering :cry: ).Ssssshudderrrr and perish the thought.Cheers Dennis.

hiya,
Dennis I found the 220 Roller engine as fitted to the Big J a reliable enough engine
never having any trouble with them and they would “out tub” the Gardner 240 all
day long (and I’m a Percy fan) but me not wearing the guvnors cap I wasn’t caring
about MPG as yourself would take into consideration, I didn’t find them any more
noisy than the ■■■■■■■ engined jobbies we had at the same time, Oh’ yes and if
I could have swapped that bloody 80 thing for a Big J I would in the blink of an eye.
thanks harry, long retired.

Bewick:

ramone:

Bewick:
The Big J was a great general fleet motor,and IIRC when it was fitted with a RR220 Eagle engine it became,along with the Seddon 32/4 with the same engine,the cheapest 32 ton fleet motor on the market in the later 60’s,early 70’s.The same criteria applied at Atkinson and ERF,their cheapest fleet motors for the large Oil co’s and big Supermarkets were their chassis fitted with the RR 220.Unfortunately it was only the likes of the Oil co’s,Supermarkets and BRS/NFC that could afford to run these (IMHO) obnoxious lumps of rubbish,but of course,the initial cost price suited the accountants at the various conglomerates,the actual costs of running said crap was not as important as it could be spread over a number of years within the accounts,but the lowest capital cost per unit at the outset was the main consideration.Cheers Bewick. :blush:

Why is that Dennis were they bad on fuel ,unreliable or both ?

Hiya “ramone”,the RR engine as far as tractor units were concerned (Automotive engines) IMHO were just noisy obnoxious lumps of uneconomical rubbish,if they’d been any good you would have seen them, appearing in quantity,in all the major haulage fleets of the era,did you,No ! Yes you always saw the odd one appear in the various hauliers fleets up and down the country but in the main it was only because there was a “financial one off inducement” or the particular haulier was so desperate at the time for a unit that there was no alternative to the RR engined chassis.Thankfully I was never placed in such an invidious postition otherwise I might have had to “top” myself( who’s cheering :cry: ).Ssssshudderrrr and perish the thought.Cheers Dennis.

Exactly what I was trying to tell your friend Carryfast on the ERGO thread when he was mistakingly praising RR diesel automotive engines, but as usual he wasn’t listening to those of us in the know.

They made great tank engines though thats good enough for the kind of the leatherhead gear jammers.

What was actually wrong with the RR engine, that made it uneconomical to operate, compared to the others?

Early RR’s had reliability issues, head gaskets were one of them but they soon got on top of the problems and became a decent engine but like a lot of designs the faults of the first types created a reputation that was hard to shake off.
With regards to the Big J, I never got on with the 220 models, yes they were really good pullers for their class but usually had a poor top speed 45-50 mph and had a terrible throttle linkage (or pump rack?) that would bounce causing kangeroo actions till you took your foot off and replanted it !
Now at Midlands BRS we had quite a few 280 Rolls models and they were real flyers, a lot quieter than the 220 and pulled as well if not better than the 290 ■■■■■■■ models. They were easily distinguishable from the ■■■■■■■ which had the exhaust stack on the R/H side, the Rolls on the L/H.
When big j production finished at Guy’s we had crusaders from there with the same 280 Roller/Fuller set up which were good machines.
Fuel consumption is one thing I don’t really recall but they were certainly no worse than the ■■■■■■■ motor.
Quite a few people on here and drivers I worked with complained about the driving position of the big j’s, I never had a problem and considering I’m no small person I quite liked driving them and was never uncomfortable, unlike the current new Daf I drive !

Hi, All
With reference to the RR debate, I always found ,although I must admit I’ve never driven one in anger, except for a Viewline fitted with one at the RTITB at High Ercall, that you either got a very good one or a very poor one . There didn’t seem to be any OK, moderate ones…
As regards the driving position in the Big J, I never had any trouble getting comfortable,and I drove Gardner,■■■■■■■ and the Perkins V8 models.
In it’s day they were a good fleet motor,and a big improvement on the Invincible.

Cheers Bassman