Talking to one of our drivers today, he said that he’d picked up an infringement a few weeks back for 61.5 hours work in a week, the temporary, acting, assistant, assistant TM (still with me?) told him that as we’re paid breaks that working time counted from clocking on to clocking off, regardless of breaks and POA.
We backed off from an argument, I simply said ‘I hear what you’re saying’ and he said he’ll leave it to me to deal directly with the TAAAATM should the situation arise.
He’s also one of those that is adamant that any breaks must be at least 30 mins for WTD and will not accept that 15 mins is fine to reset the 6 hour clock, something that’s come from within the firm, possibly even from the in house DCPC module (I wasn’t employed here when they did it, so don’t know for sure).
I’ve experienced similar misinformation from managers/ DCPC modules in previous employment.
Is there an ulterior motive for this or are they just misinformed themselves? I note both this firm and my previous one buy in to the FTA for advice/ audits/ running the DCPC.
It would be in their interests not to let the whole 61.5 hours count as working time, as they’d get more out of you by knocking off breaks and POA from that 61.5 hours. Also, a driver need only take 15 minute breaks to reset the 6 hour working-time rule. I’ve always taken 15 min breaks, and never been pulled up for it, nor received an infringment. Again, it would be in your companiy’s interests to let you have just 15 minutes, and not demand 30 minutes.
So in my opinion you’re being fed misinformation, and there is no ulterior motive. Perhaps they’re just trying to cover themselves in an idiot proof manner for the lowest common denominator so as to save their operator’s licence - who knows?
EDIT: as far as I’m aware, it doesn’t matter if breaks are paid or not. Breaks recorded legally are the important thing - if you’re resting, you’re resting. It is not work.
I’ve given up trying to guess where some of this misinformation comes from, a break is break regardless of whether you’re being paid or not, I don’t think many people would do POA unpaid so presumably he also thinks that POA counts as working time even though Regulation 5 - RT(WT)R 2005 says differently.
Don’t know if you’re on for wincanton or not but when I was with them they were adamant 30 mins must be taken before 6 hours work for the wtd. I think I now know different but still take 30’s even though my tacho says I only need a 15. I can’t seem to get 30 out of my head for some reason…difficult thing to completely erase being wincantonised [emoji57]
the maoster:
Our lot insist on 30 mins too. They know and accept that 15 is adequate but it’s their train set and they pay all breaks, so who am I to argue?
There’s a bit of logic in it actually. One of the biggest mistakes drivers make when not doing many actual driving hours but are nevertheless on a long shift, is to overlook the sum total of WTD breaks required and inadvertantly end up going over 9 hours worked with only 15 minutes break. Easily done if you’re just hanging about.
Our driver trainers advise same but the company don’t nag us if we don’t.
Many that have never done the drivers training think that company policy is the law . The 30min rule is probably to illiminate mistakes on the 6 hr rule . Fairly common where driving hrs are often the smallest part of the day .
Surely if it’s only the firm that insist this and that is an infringement - then what would happen in the wider world, is that VOSA would just ingore it, or “not find an infringement in the first place” when examining someone at the roadside…?
I’ve had arguments, mostly about the six hour rule.
Now, I find it’s easier to get left alone if one doesn’t argue, and just takes the damned 30 minute break before six hours in, insisting upon taking a break on a bay if need be.
I try to take the second 30 minute break around the 9 hour mark.
If one or other is not practical for any reason, I’ll nearly always end up taking a full hour across around six hours in - but I still get an infringement if I say, take one hour from 5hr 30m in, to 6hr 30m in, and then nothing else - once I go past the 12hr30m mark.
I stopped getting those infringements in the end, by avoiding shifts over 12 hours like the plague, of course.
Winseer:
Surely if it’s only the firm that insist this and that is an infringement - then what would happen in the wider world, is that VOSA would just ingore it, or “not find an infringement in the first place” when examining someone at the roadside…?
I am not really sure about this ? Surely any breaks are included in the working day or even week ? I know that if the working day must not exceed a set number of hours from start to finish and taking a break in the middle does not extend the day by the time taken as a break but on a weekly period it should be extended. For instance, here in the USA the rules give us a 14 hour working day, if we take 30 minutes or even a 2 hour break in the day the duty time is not extended, you must still finish duty by the time the 14 hours are up but each break taken does extend the weekly duty allowance, in saying this, if I take an 8 hour break the day is extended by 8 hours … It’s so hard to work out but the ‘ELOG’ works it all out for me.
Are these companies causing confusion by using a computer program for wages managment linked to the card downloader .
I know some of the software on some systems had faults .
Others link it with trackers systems and the trace must marry with the running sheet that the driver fills in and submits .
Micro managment in its extreme form !
It’s the one thing that I certainly don’t miss from being out on the roads .
the maoster:
Our lot insist on 30 mins too. They know and accept that 15 is adequate but it’s their train set and they pay all breaks, so who am I to argue?
There’s a bit of logic in it actually. One of the biggest mistakes drivers make when not doing many actual driving hours but are nevertheless on a long shift, is to overlook the sum total of WTD breaks required and inadvertantly end up going over 9 hours worked with only 15 minutes break. Easily done if you’re just hanging about.
There’s nothing wrong with working over 9 hours on only a 15, so long as you haven’t worked more than 6 hours at any point without a break and you have 45 in total of qualifying breaks before you finish
Work 6
Break 15
Work 6
Break 15
Work 2:14
Break 15
Work 1 min
That’s the extreme example of what you can do whilst single crewed
Our driver trainers advise same but the company don’t nag us if we don’t.
the maoster:
Our lot insist on 30 mins too. They know and accept that 15 is adequate but it’s their train set and they pay all breaks, so who am I to argue?
There’s a bit of logic in it actually. One of the biggest mistakes drivers make when not doing many actual driving hours but are nevertheless on a long shift, is to overlook the sum total of WTD breaks required and inadvertantly end up going over 9 hours worked with only 15 minutes break. Easily done if you’re just hanging about.
There’s nothing wrong with working over 9 hours on only a 15, so long as you haven’t worked more than 6 hours at any point without a break and you have 45 in total of qualifying breaks before you finish
Work 6
Break 15
Work 6
Break 15
Work 2:14
Break 15
Work 1 min
That’s the extreme example of what you can do whilst single crewed
Our driver trainers advise same but the company don’t nag us if we don’t.
You’ve posted that a bit wrong Stevie, makes it look like I said what you’re saying… but it does reinforce my point. You have to be well on the ball to maximise working hours whilst minimising breaks, and in the real world it’s far too easy to forget and cop for an infringement; especially if you’re doing other work and not sat at the wheel with a clock under your nose all the time.
