Yes another self employed discussion

as above I know this topic as been discussed a lot on here before but thought I’d start another one sorry. I constantly hear off others drivers how they are much better off being self employed, best thing iv ever done etc etc (we all know how it goes) but then when I do some reaserch into it I’m finding information that says otherwise such as this:

rha.uk.net/news/press-relea … oyment-tax

so all those self employed what do you make of this and does it not worry you at all?

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Only 18 months late. Keep up at the back.

Self employed O/D ect, youre lining your own pockets not someone elses.
Re being self employed in the UK, unless the rules have changed, you need income from more than one source…

Concretejim:
Only 18 months late. Keep up at the back.

it’s what comes up on a Google search and that’s what I’m going off

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AndrewG:
Self employed O/D ect, youre lining your own pockets not someone elses. .

So the company you’re subbing to is making nothing on top of what they’re paying you?

AndrewG:
Re being self employed in the UK, unless the rules have changed, you need income from more than one source…

More complex than that, these are the guidelines from HMRC.

You’re probably self-employed if you:

Run your business for yourself and take responsibility for its success or failure
Have several customers at the same time
Can decide how, where and when you do your work
Can hire other people at your own expense to help you or to do the work for you
Provide the main items of equipment to do your work
Are responsible for finishing any unsatisfactory work in your own time
Charge an agreed fixed price for your work
Sell goods or services to make a profit (including through websites or apps)

Theres a couple of so called ‘self employed’ agency drivers at my place who only work for my boss, no one else - always going on about how much money their supposidly on … but all it is mate is a tax dodge.

They never take a days holiday and if they get put on a run that will take an hour or two less than the average one, they stamp their feet and kick off. I think that tells you exactly how much their actually on.

Oh and they love a moan about how long it takes to see a doctor or that they cant get their kids into the nearest school. Yes they want everyone else to pay their share into the system as long as its not them.

Blatent tax dodge thats all it is. I’d love for the hmrc to drop a tax bill through their door but I think they have bigger fish to fry.

its that part that states someone driving a lorry for another company cannot be self-employed…

isn’t that what all self employed drivers are doing?

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paul1181:
Theres a couple of so called ‘self employed’ agency drivers at my place who only work for my boss, no one else - always going on about how much money their supposidly on … but all it is mate is a tax dodge.

They never take a days holiday and if they get put on a run that will take an hour or two less than the average one, they stamp their feet and kick off. I think that tells you exactly how much their actually on.

Oh and they love a moan about how long it takes to see a doctor or that they cant get their kids into the nearest school. Yes they want everyone else to pay their share into the system as long as its not them.

Blatent tax dodge thats all it is. I’d love for the hmrc to drop a tax bill through their door but I think they have bigger fish to fry.

thing is whilst you’ve got other drivers who promote it you’re gonna get other drivers signing up for it… not gonna lie it does peak my interest but when I do some reaserch into it I get information like that and it brings me back down to earth

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Berty:

paul1181:
Theres a couple of so called ‘self employed’ agency drivers at my place who only work for my boss, no one else - always going on about how much money their supposidly on … but all it is mate is a tax dodge.

They never take a days holiday and if they get put on a run that will take an hour or two less than the average one, they stamp their feet and kick off. I think that tells you exactly how much their actually on.

Oh and they love a moan about how long it takes to see a doctor or that they cant get their kids into the nearest school. Yes they want everyone else to pay their share into the system as long as its not them.

Blatent tax dodge thats all it is. I’d love for the hmrc to drop a tax bill through their door but I think they have bigger fish to fry.

thing is whilst you’ve got other drivers who promote it you’re gonna get other drivers signing up for it… not gonna lie it does peak my interest but when I do some reaserch into it I get information like that and it brings me back down to earth

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The thing on the outside it might look like they’re earning more money, but they don’t get paid holidays or Bank holidays for starters, that’s 28 days pay a year, also my understanding if you’re Self Employed (Not Ltd company) you still have to pay the same income tax and you have to play NI contributions, you might be able to claim some expenses against tax.

muckles:

AndrewG:
Self employed O/D ect, youre lining your own pockets not someone elses. .

So the company you’re subbing to is making nothing on top of what they’re paying you?

I could have worded it better. Yes,im lining their pockets obviously but earn considerably more than their employed drivers. Then again, its me taking the risk, it literally costs me a fortune each year to run my truck, the fuel bill alone was 83,350eur for 2016. Insurances/maintenance ect pile on another big lump. Company i sub for treats me like one of their own and couldnt want for better but…im under no illusion their business plan could change at any point and work could potentially dry up.
Having said that, an additionl yard/office in Norway is now on the cards since regs there have changed, Reims has also been expanded with parking for an additional 40 trailers…

Under UK terms, you are self employed Andrew, you have your own truck. I’ve been to RHA conferences, Sat in on transport solicitors seminars and it’s Crystal clear. If you are a driver, to be self emoyed, you have to have a truck. It really is that simple.

And as muscles says, no holiday pay, also no sick pay, no pension, no redundancy and no definite work. If I haven’t gotveork, my drivers still get paid their 8 hours, self employed, there’s no obligation on the ‘customer’ to cover a days pay.

From an employers pov, it’s easier to have self emoyed drivers; all that responsibility I can absolve myself from.

Sooner HMRC have a purge the better.

albion:
Under UK terms, you are self employed Andrew, you have your own truck. I’ve been to RHA conferences, Sat in on transport solicitors seminars and it’s Crystal clear. If you are a driver, to be self emoyed, you have to have a truck. It really is that simple.

I’m not sure if it is that simple, after all what is an agency except a ltd company sending a driver to a company, the agency doesn’t have their own trucks?
So why isn’t a ltd company company driver an agency with only one driver on their books, provided you fulfill the criteria set out by the HMRC?

I had a go at it over the course of the summer there. Set up as an LTD which involved taking out public liabilities insurance (cost £135), getting on the books of an accountant (who charged £25 a week - you can do it yourself if you can be arsed but I couldn’t) and setting up a business bank account (20 minutes in branch). It meant that a job that paid £630 per week on PAYE terms (bottom line) went up to £795 for the exact same work. That, to me, was better than accruing holiday entitlement each week.

Of course, as stated above, at the end of the day I was under no illusions that it was anything other than a tax fiddle. I was picking up agency work and driving an established firm’s truck doing their work for them. After 12 weeks of justifying this to myself by giving it “well if it’s good enough for the rich…” eventually my conscience kicked in and I went back to being a full time employee for this and a few other reasons.

At the end of the day it does pay more money if you can be arsed with the hassle of setting it all up and changing jobs at least every 26 weeks but you have to weigh that against the security of a “proper” job and the moral puzzle of dodging tax.

Telt:
getting on the books of an accountant (who charged £25 a week -

:open_mouth: The agency didnt by any chance give you the accountants number did they? Even if running ltd, its a very few simple calculations and quick and easy tick box’s to fill out a tax return. £625 for a return is silly money…

AndrewG:

Telt:
getting on the books of an accountant (who charged £25 a week -

:open_mouth: The agency didnt by any chance give you the accountants number did they? Even if running ltd, its a very few simple calculations and quick and easy tick box’s to fill out a tax return. £625 for a return is silly money…

Yeah, they did.

I was always aware that this was pretty much a needless cost but a mixture of pure laziness and a willingness to go for the easiest option when entering into a new situation led me to just go along with it. I wouldn’t really endorse it as a course of action but I was happy enough with the extra money that I wasn’t inclined to question the extra expense.

muckles:

albion:
Under UK terms, you are self employed Andrew, you have your own truck. I’ve been to RHA conferences, Sat in on transport solicitors seminars and it’s Crystal clear. If you are a driver, to be self emoyed, you have to have a truck. It really is that simple.

I’m not sure if it is that simple, after all what is an agency except a ltd company sending a driver to a company, the agency doesn’t have their own trucks?
So why isn’t a ltd company company driver an agency with only one driver on their books, provided you fulfill the criteria set out by the HMRC?

An agency will have multiple employees and it’s business is to supply temporary workers. I should have been clearer, joys of typing on a mobile phone, if you are a one man self-employed working for one company, you cannot be self-employed, unless you have your own vehicle. If you are self-employed and drive for multiple customers, then you can be self employed.

albion:

muckles:

albion:
Under UK terms, you are self employed Andrew, you have your own truck. I’ve been to RHA conferences, Sat in on transport solicitors seminars and it’s Crystal clear. If you are a driver, to be self emoyed, you have to have a truck. It really is that simple.

I’m not sure if it is that simple, after all what is an agency except a ltd company sending a driver to a company, the agency doesn’t have their own trucks?
So why isn’t a ltd company company driver an agency with only one driver on their books, provided you fulfill the criteria set out by the HMRC?

An agency will have multiple employees and it’s business is to supply temporary workers. I should have been clearer, joys of typing on a mobile phone, if you are a one man self-employed working for one company, you cannot be self-employed, unless you have your own vehicle. If you are self-employed and drive for multiple customers, then you can be self employed.

Yes. I believe this would satisfy the criteria of being able to supply a substitute that would quantify being a “real” business.
Earlier this year, I did a big job for one client for a couple of months and turned down work from other clients to concentrate on this job. Because I was generating invoices to only one company, I started to trigger mechanisms for not being self employed despite employing 3 people.

Own/drive your own truck. Put fuel in the tank from your own pocket = small business person.
Driving for one company more or less full time = taking the ■■■■/having the ■■■■ taken from you.

Telt:
I had a go at it over the course of the summer there. Set up as an LTD which involved taking out public liabilities insurance (cost £135), getting on the books of an accountant (who charged £25 a week - you can do it yourself if you can be arsed but I couldn’t) and setting up a business bank account (20 minutes in branch). It meant that a job that paid £630 per week on PAYE terms (bottom line) went up to £795 for the exact same work. That, to me, was better than accruing holiday entitlement each week.

Of course, as stated above, at the end of the day I was under no illusions that it was anything other than a tax fiddle. I was picking up agency work and driving an established firm’s truck doing their work for them. After 12 weeks of justifying this to myself by giving it “well if it’s good enough for the rich…” eventually my conscience kicked in and I went back to being a full time employee for this and a few other reasons.

At the end of the day it does pay more money if you can be arsed with the hassle of setting it all up and changing jobs at least every 26 weeks but you have to weigh that against the security of a “proper” job and the moral puzzle of dodging tax.

well explained mate and to answer your question no I probably couldn’t be bothered to set it all up I’d rather keep to the safety of being on paye after reading all this

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AndrewG:
Self employed O/D ect, youre lining your own pockets not someone elses.

If you’re working for an agency self employed for a quid or two an hour more than PAYE you’re lining the agency’s pockets.

AndieHyde:

albion:

muckles:

albion:
Under UK terms, you are self employed Andrew, you have your own truck. I’ve been to RHA conferences, Sat in on transport solicitors seminars and it’s Crystal clear. If you are a driver, to be self emoyed, you have to have a truck. It really is that simple.

I’m not sure if it is that simple, after all what is an agency except a ltd company sending a driver to a company, the agency doesn’t have their own trucks?
So why isn’t a ltd company company driver an agency with only one driver on their books, provided you fulfill the criteria set out by the HMRC?

An agency will have multiple employees and it’s business is to supply temporary workers. I should have been clearer, joys of typing on a mobile phone, if you are a one man self-employed working for one company, you cannot be self-employed, unless you have your own vehicle. If you are self-employed and drive for multiple customers, then you can be self employed.

Yes. I believe this would satisfy the criteria of being able to supply a substitute that would quantify being a “real” business.
Earlier this year, I did a big job for one client for a couple of months and turned down work from other clients to concentrate on this job. Because I was generating invoices to only one company, I started to trigger mechanisms for not being self employed despite employing 3 people.

Own/drive your own truck. Put fuel in the tank from your own pocket = small business person.
Driving for one company more or less full time = taking the ■■■■/having the ■■■■ taken from you.

To be genuinely self-employed, and stating the point very generally, you have to be an owner (of business capital), an employer, or have recognisable authority over your customers.

If you are/have none of these to any significant degree, the self-employment is basically not genuine.

It is otherwise perfectly possible to be an employee who fills up the vehicle and then claims on expenses, and it is perfectly possible to be a businessman with only one client.

But owning a pair of gloves and toe-capped boots does not make you an owner, occasionally bunging some work to a “self-employed” friend does not make you an employer, and one driver in a marketplace of thousands does not stand as the authority figure against a large corporation or the peripheral businesses which supply it.