CF was right on the Tories and Brexit betrayal

Carryfast me old mate, you have been proved completely right, and i have been proved to be as wrong as a wrong person could ever be.

I really thought that May would make Brexit happen, despite parliament being predominately against democracy and the people who voted for them, and especially against those who voted leave in the referendum.
Not because May has any notion of honesty or democracy, but purely to save the hide of the fake Tory party.

I am disappointed especially in Rees-Mogg, who U turned at the last hurdle, i had great hopes for him as a potential leader of a renewed Conservative party worth voting for once again…it has been many years, a lifetime, since that was the case.
He may well become leader of the Tory party in due course because he has proved not to be the person so many of us were taken in by.

Farage has donned a new hat and is working in his next script of splitting the Brexit vote away from UKIP…who are no longer under his influence, and better for it.

Once again the good Lady Judd has proved to be on the money, she said the day of the referendum result that we would not be coming out, or if we did it would be nothing like what anyone who voted leave imagined would be, i should have listened to her, she has the ability to see straight through charlatans and has a very healthy distrust of the establishment.

So we are now have an extended un-decision until Halloween, how appropriate the date given the number of ghouls in the two Houses, and the monarchy, who are all party to this ongoing (since 1972) betrayal.
Plenty of time to set up a new loaded second referendum, they’ve had three years already to plan a more intense propaganda campaign, always assuming the house don’t cancel Brexit altogether, which wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

Well done CF, you were on the money and i have been proved beyond doubt to have it completely wrong.

Let us hope enough people now see what the 2.1 (if you include the limp dumps) identikit parties have done to this country and decide at last to vote for someone else, someone worth voting for.
Sadly the by-election in Newport has already proved turkeys are still presumably happy vote for their very own Christmas, its as if the last 3 years of betrayal and treason has been forgotten already, have they been asleep since June 2016.

Thanks Juddian although I’d rather it had been you who was right and me wrong.

As I’ve said to the local constituency UKIP branch we should be under no illusions as to the heights ( depths ) that this conspiracy reaches.

My own unshakable view is the obvious split loyalties of the Sax Coburg/Schleswick Holstein union dynasty at Buck House that undoubtedly does have the final say on matters of sovereignty and the national interest.Including the power to refuse assent to Heath’s treachery let alone ordering a military coup against any parliament gone rogue as in this case.

Combined with a US government with an all too predictable paranoia regarding secession,with justified ongoing calls from States like Texas for the right to unilaterally secede from the Federal government system over there.In which Trump having followed through with his bs pretend ‘support’ of Brexit,in the form of unilateral de recognition of UK EU member state status,would probably have been the final straw for the CIA to act against him for obvious reasons if/when Texans then shouted what about/why not us too.

So there we have it the Mogg’s,Farage’s,and Davises etc etc of this world all maybe justifiably running scared of a Sax Coburg/CIA joint ‘operation’ on them if they don’t toe the line.While those like Batten and Powell,who don’t give a zb, are kept well away from power.Leaving Heath,Callaghan,Thatcher,Major,Blair,Brown,Cameron,and May to get on with the job of enthusiastically doing the Coburgs and CIA’s work of delivering this country into being a vassal state of the USE/EUSSR call it what you like.Just like Texas was sold into US vassalage in 1845 by James Polk the Texan Heath.

Nothing else would/could possibly explain why/how Heath was allowed to just hand the country over to a foreign power in 1972 without being frog marched out of office at the point of a Military Police bayonet.

Unfortunately British workers and their unions being made the scapegoats for the handing over of our wealth creating industry as part of the plot.

Juddian:
Sadly the by-election in Newport has already proved turkeys are still presumably happy vote for their very own Christmas, its as if the last 3 years of betrayal and treason has been forgotten already, have they been asleep since June 2016.

To add.

To be fair the figures just don’t seem to add up.The LabCons lost around 23,000 votes combined from 2017.The turnout supposedly conveniently also dropped by around 20,000.

The difference between the around 6,000 UKIP 2015 figure dropping to around 1,000 in 2017 looks questionable enough to me.Let alone a possible massive 15,000 at least swing to UKIP from the LabCons possibly being chucked in a skip and lost as part of an unbelievably low turnout figure.

IE the only rules now are that there are no rules.In us being in the end game of the process which Heath and his handlers started and they won’t let the small matter of the Brit electorate stand in their way just as he didn’t.If the Generals don’t act now,against a government and ultimate command,gone rogue the country is lost,article 50 inevitably gets revoked and then Lisbon kicks in with full force in 2020.My bet is that it’s what the Americans would do in that event that’s holding them back.Inevitably seeing secession within Europe as being as bad as secession at home in that regard combined with being in denial as to the true colours of their ultimate commander in chief.Scary stuff the EU ( Germany ) and US in an alliance to subjugate Europe because the idea of a Europe made up of individual sovereign states is just too much of a threat to the US Federal government status quo at home.At least that theory gives you an idea of what we’re up against and our chances.

Carryfast:

Juddian:
Sadly the by-election in Newport has already proved turkeys are still presumably happy vote for their very own Christmas, its as if the last 3 years of betrayal and treason has been forgotten already, have they been asleep since June 2016.

To add.

To be fair the figures just don’t seem to add up.The LabCons lost around 23,000 votes combined from 2017.The turnout supposedly conveniently also dropped by around 20,000.

The difference between the around 6,000 UKIP 2015 figure dropping to around 1,000 in 2017 looks questionable enough to me.Let alone a possible massive 15,000 at least swing to UKIP from the LabCons possibly being chucked in a skip and lost as part of an unbelievably low turnout figure.

IE the only rules now are that there are no rules.I

I think you give the electorate too much credit here, do you really believe some 15000 people in one constituency have woken up to the peril our country is in?, i don’t.
However i too don’t trust the methods of voting in this country any more, Thanet South and the missing for hours ballot boxes Zimbabwe style disabused us of that notion, not to mention Tower Hamlets.

Newport and area has an improving economy thanks almost exclusively to the Severn tolls being removed making commuting to Avonmouth and district more cost effective, and we all know that most people only look at their own circumstances in the shortest of terms at general election times, what’s in for me syndrome, i’m doing ok Jack so back to the usual choice of which candidate is promising me more money taken from other people in taxes or borrowed in the names of other people’s children.

We’re both getting on a bit now CF and what is coming and the changes that will happen if we stay in the EU and Lisbon treaty fully engages will not apply so much to us for obvious reasons.
Those desperate to stay in the EU may well win the current battle and feel even more smug than they normally already do, but they will find out the hard way in time that millions of people like us did not actually vote leave for personal gain, many of us i believe had a longer term view of what was best for our children, the country generally, and the country they will inherit.

It’s no accident that the appalling leaders currently doing their level best to destroy Europe are often barren/childless.

Juddian:

Carryfast:
To be fair the figures just don’t seem to add up.The LabCons lost around 23,000 votes combined from 2017.The turnout supposedly conveniently also dropped by around 20,000.

The difference between the around 6,000 UKIP 2015 figure dropping to around 1,000 in 2017 looks questionable enough to me.Let alone a possible massive 15,000 at least swing to UKIP from the LabCons possibly being chucked in a skip and lost as part of an unbelievably low turnout figure.

IE the only rules now are that there are no rules.I

I think you give the electorate too much credit here, do you really believe some 15000 people in one constituency have woken up to the peril our country is in?, i don’t.
However i too don’t trust the methods of voting in this country any more, Thanet South and the missing for hours ballot boxes Zimbabwe style disabused us of that notion, not to mention Tower Hamlets.

Newport and area has an improving economy thanks almost exclusively to the Severn tolls being removed making commuting to Avonmouth and district more cost effective, and we all know that most people only look at their own circumstances in the shortest of terms at general election times, what’s in for me syndrome, i’m doing ok Jack so back to the usual choice of which candidate is promising me more money taken from other people in taxes or borrowed in the names of other people’s children.

We’re both getting on a bit now CF and what is coming and the changes that will happen if we stay in the EU and Lisbon treaty fully engages will not apply so much to us for obvious reasons.
Those desperate to stay in the EU may well win the current battle and feel even more smug than they normally already do, but they will find out the hard way in time that millions of people like us did not actually vote leave for personal gain, many of us i believe had a longer term view of what was best for our children, the country generally, and the country they will inherit.

It’s no accident that the appalling leaders currently doing their level best to destroy Europe are often barren/childless.

Firstly you might be right that maybe not 15,000 but let’s say a decent figure regardless.It really takes a lot to believe that 20,000 voters just went awol and suddenly decided not to bother to vote.Thereby creating the right result ( for the establishment ) at the right time as opposed to a UKIP walkover.

But yes it’s obvious that toeing the line of what is probably a US imposed Federalist agenda,to protect US Federal government interests at the end of the day,will create havoc in a couple of generations time.When those viewing themselves British/English/Scottish/Irish and wanting their right to self determination returned as part of that,will suddenly find themselves being viewed as the traitors/rebels to the USE/EUSSR and at best having to fight their way out of it ( and in this case,unlike the former Yugoslav states ), probably lose ) .

Having said that there are a lot of people regardless of age here and now who realise much of that and who possibly aren’t just going to stand by and allow these traitors to get away with it with a wimper.As I said the only rules now are that there are no rules so who knows.I know if I was an army general I’d be starting to ask questions of our US ‘allies’ as to exactly where the US stands regarding its interests in Europe and if that means subjugating us into a vassal state of a German led USE then we’ve got a problem to the point where we view both the US and Germany as an enemy not an ally.

Further to the above discussions, it is interesting that the UK’s Armed Forces have been reduced in numbers significantly over the last few years and Home Office guidelines make it expensive and tedious to jump through all the hoops necessary to acquire legal firearms.

The US Second Amendment was passed precisely to ensure the people could not be oppressed by government. We had similar rights in the 17th Century, all eroded over the years in stages since 1920.

Buckstones:
it is interesting that the UK’s Armed Forces have been reduced in numbers significantly over the last few years

Yep, every time the population make a democratic vote for a tax cutting party, that seems more likely.

Buckstones:
Home Office guidelines make it expensive and tedious to jump through all the hoops necessary to acquire legal firearms.

Tedious and expensive to acquire firearms? If legitimate users must put up with extra paperwork to try and avoid another Dunblane or Hungerford, so be it. The fewer guns out there, the fewer can be used for bad purposes.

Buckstones:
The US Second Amendment was passed precisely to ensure the people could not be oppressed by government

Wasn`t the idea to have a ready armed Militia, ready to follow the legitimate Governments orders, in a widely dispersed rural society?

Buckstones:
We had similar rights in the 17th Century, all eroded over the years in stages since 1920.

In the 17th century we had capital punishment for stealing sheep or fish. Fortunately, IMHO, we have moved on from those days. The need for guns in a largely agricultural rural setting, are vastly different to those in a modern city.

Franglais, you make very reasonable points, which I will not dispute.

However, since the ‘bans’ introduced after Hungerford and Dunblane, the number of shootings has increased very substantially.
Over 95% of shootings involve illegal guns, as criminals naturally take no notice of laws.

Many illegal guns are smuggled in from Europe. We fail to stop immigrants and drugs arriving, so not likely to be successful stopping guns.

A friend who competed in an event in the Czech republic dutifully declared his rifle, with correct paperwork, on his return to Dover.
Customs staff then spent 45 minutes searching his Landrover, while a hundred cars drove unmolested through the green channel.

Cutting back on Police funding and hence numbers (thanks to former Home Secretary T May) has not helped - just as restrictions on ‘stop and search’ (so as not to offend certain sections of the community) has led to the current epidemic of stabbings.

Violent criminals feel they can act as they like, as their victims are unarmed and defenceless, and police are seldom visible except when responding after an event, a sorry state of affairs which is unlikely to improve anytime soon.

Buckstones:
Further to the above discussions, it is interesting that the UK’s Armed Forces have been reduced in numbers significantly over the last few years and Home Office guidelines make it expensive and tedious to jump through all the hoops necessary to acquire legal firearms.

The US Second Amendment was passed precisely to ensure the people could not be oppressed by government. We had similar rights in the 17th Century, all eroded over the years in stages since 1920.

Firstly I’d agree that there is probably an agenda behind the deliberate weakening of our forces to obviously create less chance of the Brit generals ever taking on the combined threat of the EU and its quisling supporters within.

However it’s ironic to compare the US 2nd amendment when you’d see exactly what that’s worth if/when Texas for example ever decided to go for secession by force even using its own state militia.Against the might of the US Federal forces with all the hardware available at their disposal,let alone a few patriots armed with semi auto small arms.Also bearing in mind that even those small arms ammo supplies can easily be controlled and interdicted by the Federal government.Make no mistake a proper fight,if push ever came to shove in that regard,requires air power,heavy artillery and tanks whether it’s taking back Texas from the US or the UK from the EU.With UK forces having been decimated compared to French and German combined forces for obvious reasons.IE the CIA and the Sax Coburg’s don’t trust the Brit generals to toe the EU line.

Franglais:

Buckstones:
The US Second Amendment was passed precisely to ensure the people could not be oppressed by government

Wasn`t the idea to have a ready armed Militia, ready to follow the legitimate Governments orders, in a widely dispersed rural society?

It’s a bit more complicated than that.The 2nd was actually a pointless fudge ( at least if the aim was supposedly to provide defence against a government gone rogue ).To deal with the contradiction created by the Federalists having hijacked the original articles of confederation.Which had only provided for local or at most State controlled militias not a Federal army.Obviously contradicted when the Federal government had obtained the required powers anyway within the new hijacked constitution.

Not to really be confused with the idea that the only way to stop a criminal with a gun is a non criminal with a bigger gun.

IE the right to self defence using deadly force including fire arms.Gun laws obviously only stop the latter acting in self defence not the former because criminals by definition don’t care about the law.It doesn’t really need the 2nd just to fix that issue.

Buckstones:
Franglais, you make very reasonable points, which I will not dispute.

However, since the ‘bans’ introduced after Hungerford and Dunblane, the number of shootings has increased very substantially.
Over 95% of shootings involve illegal guns, as criminals naturally take no notice of laws.

Many illegal guns are smuggled in from Europe. We fail to stop immigrants and drugs arriving, so not likely to be successful stopping guns.

A friend who competed in an event in the Czech republic dutifully declared his rifle, with correct paperwork, on his return to Dover.
Customs staff then spent 45 minutes searching his Landrover, while a hundred cars drove unmolested through the green channel.

Cutting back on Police funding and hence numbers (thanks to former Home Secretary T May) has not helped - just as restrictions on ‘stop and search’ (so as not to offend certain sections of the community) has led to the current epidemic of stabbings.

Violent criminals feel they can act as they like, as their victims are unarmed and defenceless, and police are seldom visible except when responding after an event, a sorry state of affairs which is unlikely to improve anytime soon.

We can agree that criminals take no notice of laws! Yes, making tougher laws for gun ownership won`t much affect the career criminal type, but in both Dunblane and Hungerford the guns were held legally. Having fewer guns in circulation, must surely mean there are less available to be stolen, or misused etc?
Illegally smuggled in weapons? Yes, again you are making a very valid point, but having to admit that there are other sources for obtaining weapons is surely no reason to plug up others when possible?
Less available weaponry may not prevent drug dealers getting guns, but will prevent nutters getting them. I do have sympathy for those who are genuine level headed sports-people, but there we are.

The instance you mention looks like a total waste of Customs Officers time I totally agree. I cant imagine what they were thinking.

We are in agreement that underfunding of police is a problem.
Many studies show that increased penalties for offences have minimal effect if perpetrators feel they wont get caught. Increased policing and a more visible police presence affects offending rates in many fields. Doesnt much matter if the prison sentence is 2 yrs or 20 yrs if you don`t see anyone getting caught!

Stop and Search is fraught with problems, and it swings from over-use to under-use and sometimes misuse. The pendulum is swinging again:
dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … forms.html

The US is often cited as an example of armed civilians able to protect themselves, but consistently decade after decade it has much higher homicide rates than those countries without arms.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … _by_decade
We shouldn`t copy a country that has, and always has had, much worse homicide rates than us.
Admittedly there are many more factors than just gun laws at play, but it seems significant here.

Franglais, thank you for your thoughtful responses, many valid points, I won’t debate further except regarding Michael Ryan (Hungerford) and Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane).
Correct that both had been issued with Permits for Firearms: what are less widely publicised are the backgrounds to the granting of these Certificates.
In both instances members of the target clubs to which they belonged had notified the authorities of their concerns, and in the case of Hamilton there were allegations regarding his behaviour which the local police were aware of.
Some evidence given at the Public Enquiry has been sealed for 100 years, giving rise to suspicion this is a cover-up to protect officials.

Recent shootings involving licensed weapons have almost all involved shotguns, which are less restricted. These, of course,are vital to grouse shooting as well as clay pigeon shoots; anyone of sound mind can apply for a permit for a shotgun (without giving a reason). If refused, one can apply to the Courts as an appeal.

As you know, the tabloid press is not to be regarded as gospel in these matters.

Buckstones:
thank you for your thoughtful responses, many valid points, I won’t debate further

And I thank you too for your views.
Im not totally wedded to my point of view on this, and accept there are other valid arguments out there, but for the moment Ill stick with strict restriction on firearms ownership, rather than less.

Franglais:
Illegally smuggled in weapons? Yes, again you are making a very valid point, but having to admit that there are other sources for obtaining weapons is surely no reason to plug up others when possible?

…

The instance you mention looks like a total waste of Customs Officers time I totally agree. I cant imagine what they were thinking.

The main reason why licensed gun holders will be given lots of attention at borders is because they comprise a main category of smugglers.

The career criminal, already subject to attention, will rarely cross a border to buy a gun, and risk going down for decades before he’s even had chance to brandish the thing.

The chancer spotting a profit opportunity may wish to smuggle, but is unlikely to have the connections and knowledge to engage in smuggling - at least not without alerting the authorities in the process.

It’s the international gun sports professional and similar figures who are actually likely to engage in it. They are accustomed to carrying guns over borders. They know what the procedures are and how the authorities behave, they know the odds of detection, not just from their own experience but from that of their social circle. They know how to handle guns, where to get them, and they have a legitimate reason for being interested in guns. If caught with a smuggled gun, they have a variety of possible mitigating excuses.

Provided he is dealt with properly and any questioning is pertinent, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to Buckstones that declaring possession of a gun leads to close scrutiny at the border.

It may be that on any one occasion, you could just fail to declare and might not be spotted, if there aren’t any intelligence lists that identify known licensed gun holders and make them special targets for random searches if they fail to declare. But then, on the occasion you are randomly searched, you’re then going to lose all your special privileges to carry guns, whether you are doing anything else wrong or not. So by complying with the requirement to declare at least most of the time, the authorities know who you are, what vehicle you use, have some picture of the pattern of your movements and the regularity with which you move guns, and so on.

And that comes back around to the main risk factor, that those most likely to smuggle guns are those who regularly carry guns across borders legitimately and who have all the veneer of being honest and upstanding, and the purpose of the searches and attention, besides finding actual smuggled guns, is to make it clear to licensed gun holders that such smuggling comes with overwhelming risks.

Rjan:
And that comes back around to the main risk factor, that those most likely to smuggle guns are those who regularly carry guns across borders legitimately and who have all the veneer of being honest and upstanding, and the purpose of the searches and attention, besides finding actual smuggled guns, is to make it clear to licensed gun holders that such smuggling comes with overwhelming risks.

The fact is if/when it comes to a real fight over the right to self determination v an illegal oppressive government gone rogue even sacrificing life for the cause becomes a duty to such patriots.The problem then being small arms in the hands of have a go heroes won’t cut it.Especially in the case of any future fight for secession from the EU.While even Collins’ successful tactics of taking out leadership figures was just a lucky exception that proved the rule.Just as the 2nd amendment wouldn’t bring down an armed to the teeth US Federal force.

independent.ie/irish-news/an … 66592.html

As Yugoslavia proved at best it takes a reasonably well armed organised National militia to even stand a chance.While even that didn’t work in the case of the US secessionist states in 1865 and there’s no reason to think that any future UK secessionist cause would manage any better against the full might of the EU Federal army.Let alone a few American have a go heroes armed with small arms against the US army.In which if Trump was the real deal he would by now have drained the swamp and replaced the US constitution with a fit for purpose Confederal arrangement giving back sovereignty to the states over Congress.Thereby also returning the relevance of the 2nd.

It’s definitely not the case in all places that the customs are overly concerned with firearms, I arrived in the port of Agadir in Morocco with 4 firearms on board and declared them all but the customs bods were more interested in my duty free supplies and didn’t even want to check them, but it was normal for them to take 200 ciggies and a litre bottle of spirits each so was understandable …

Franglais:

Buckstones:
it is interesting that the UK’s Armed Forces have been reduced in numbers significantly over the last few years

Yep, every time the population make a democratic vote for a tax cutting party, that seems more likely.

Buckstones:
Home Office guidelines make it expensive and tedious to jump through all the hoops necessary to acquire legal firearms.

Tedious and expensive to acquire firearms? If legitimate users must put up with extra paperwork to try and avoid another Dunblane or Hungerford, so be it. The fewer guns out there, the fewer can be used for bad purposes.

Buckstones:
The US Second Amendment was passed precisely to ensure the people could not be oppressed by government

Wasn`t the idea to have a ready armed Militia, ready to follow the legitimate Governments orders, in a widely dispersed rural society?

Buckstones:
We had similar rights in the 17th Century, all eroded over the years in stages since 1920.

In the 17th century we had capital punishment for stealing sheep or fish. Fortunately, IMHO, we have moved on from those days. The need for guns in a largely agricultural rural setting, are vastly different to those in a modern city.

I don’t think you necessarily avoid another Dunblane or Hungerford if the ptb are behind such projects.Masonic/paedo Hamilton was covered by his lodge bretherens mutual vows,you must admit it sure worked out well for all concerned.They’re still pursuing this dynamic in America,activating a few Monarch Manchurians for a little light school massacre in the hopes of defanging the armed citizenry of good ol usa,a country that is currently being truly hollowed out by its current Khazarian/corporate cabal.Jobs exported to China,a 17 trillion debt around its neck,desparately seeking further foreign adventures to alleviate said debts.The last thing they need is an armed to the teeth citizenship and so the Manchurians keep a coming.What can be expected of a nation that went bankrupt in 1913,conceived in native American, genocide bloodbaths,constructed along Luciferian/Kabballic principles?