Brexit, genuine question

I know, I know, but hear me out.

First off, this is not a remainer rant. I’m in two minds about Brexit, part of me has as much distrust and dislike of the corrupt superstate that the European commission is creating as the next man, but I can see the benefits of Europe too. I’m not a full on remainer, but I think we are throwing the baby away with the bath water. Anyway…

As you’ll be aware, I’m one of those Europeans who have lived in Britain for most of my life now, and I consider this island to be my home. I have lived here, worked here, got married and divorced here , bought and sold houses, i plan to retire here, you get the drift. There are many like me.
On the other hand, there are many Brits, who live and work abroad, countries like America, Canada, Australia, south East Asia, etc.
As you may or may not be aware, Foreign nationals in the UK (who, and their families, are directly affected by this) were not allowed to vote, whilst British nationals living abroad did, (unless they lived abroad more than 15 years).

What I have wondered about, with the very small margin that swung the result, how much influence the vote of those having moved away to the other side of the world, has had on the result. Should matters in this country be decided by those living and working (and paying taxes…) here, or by those who have not, and probably won’t again, live here and are not affected by their choice?

Ffs

There you go mate

SuperMultiBlue:
Ffs

There you go mate

MC7016 hosted at ImgBB — ImgBB

I thought it was a decent enough question, I don’t think ND was getting aroused…

the nodding donkey:
I know, I know, but hear me out.

First off, this is not a remainer rant. I’m in two minds about Brexit, part of me has as much distrust and dislike of the corrupt superstate that the European commission is creating as the next man, but I can see the benefits of Europe too. I’m not a full on remainer, but I think we are throwing the baby away with the bath water. Anyway…

As you’ll be aware, I’m one of those Europeans who have lived in Britain for most of my life now, and I consider this island to be my home. I have lived here, worked here, got married and divorced here , bought and sold houses, i plan to retire here, you get the drift. There are many like me.
On the other hand, there are many Brits, who live and work abroad, countries like America, Canada, Australia, south East Asia, etc.
As you may or may not be aware, Foreign nationals in the UK (who, and their families, are directly affected by this) were not allowed to vote, whilst British nationals living abroad did, (unless they lived abroad more than 15 years).

What I have wondered about, with the very small margin that swung the result, how much influence the vote of those having moved away to the other side of the world, has had on the result. Should matters in this country be decided by those living and working (and paying taxes…) here, or by those who have not, and probably won’t again, live here and are not affected by their choice?

Sudeten Germans lived in Czechoslovakia,worked in Czechoslovakia and paid taxes in Czechoslovakia.Did they have more right to decide the fate of Czechoslovakia than those ex pat Czechs who’d left the country to fight against German rule over their country ?.On that note why do you think that foreign nationals choosing to live here should have more right to decide the future of the country than ex pat Brits regardless of how long they’ve left the country and even if they don’t intend to ever return.Especially when it’s clear that your idea of its future is very similar to the ideals of those Sudeten Germans living in Czechoslovakia in that your allegiance is to the EU Federation just as theirs’ was to the 3rd Reich not Czechoslovakia.

Valid question IMHO.
We hear of “no taxation without representation”, as would apply to some working here, who have no vote, but little of those others being entitled to vote, even after ending paying taxes, because of emigration.

There has been a lot of discussion around this issue in the Old Time section on the Referendum thread.

Seems to me some in further flung places (with less ties to the UK) tended to vote one way, but those just over the channel, (denied a vote, in spite of having real ties), wanted to vote a different way.
But that’s just my own interpretation of it all. Not a perfect system, but it’s the one that was used…

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We are past full to bursting ,Many roads are gridlocked at all times of the day ,Schools are in trouble,Hospitals are a joke ,That swung the vote ,Not a few ex pats .

It’s obvious listening to Rabbbbbbb and Davies this am that neither of them had a clue what Brexit would entail.

Rabbbbbb didn’t realise that Dover was a port, and Davies thinks that doing the Brexit deal is like buying a car or a house.

To a certain extend Davies is right…in that we have to do a deal to buy this particular house or we are homeless, but he doesn’t seem to realise that in those circumstances the vendor (EU) can dictate the price to us.

The Tory party seem to think that if they can agree a negotiation position between themselves then the EU27 will just nod it through…it would be funny were it not so sad.

GasGas:
It’s obvious listening to Rabbbbbbb and Davies this am that neither of them had a clue what Brexit would entail.

Rabbbbbb didn’t realise that Dover was a port, and Davies thinks that doing the Brexit deal is like buying a car or a house.

To a certain extend Davies is right…in that we have to do a deal to buy this particular house or we are homeless, but he doesn’t seem to realise that in those circumstances the vendor (EU) can dictate the price to us.

The Tory party seem to think that if they can agree a negotiation position between themselves then the EU27 will just nod it through…it would be funny were it not so sad.

No it’s obvious that Raab and Davis belong to an ideologically Federalist Party the same party which took the country into the EU.Both of who have now predictably sold out their supposed anti EU principles in favour of loyalty to remainer May.Unsurprisingly in the case of Raab dependent on a majority remain constituency vote while the supposed Con Leave vote is obviously happy to still vote Con.Regardless of it being a majority Remain Party as proven by every Con administration since Heath’s and the willingness of so called Brexiteer Con voters to put Party before principles in that regard.

As for the house yes we always knew that we need to move out of the EU high rise flat on the sinkhole estate and go back to a detached house in a nice area like the one that New Zealand for example still lives in.Which was Raab’s and Davis’ stated position.Until May obviously gave them the choice of keep their jobs and wages and get on board with her obvious plan of delay and sabotage with the aim of reversal of the Leave decision,or take their P45.

Carryfast:

GasGas:
It’s obvious listening to Rabbbbbbb and Davies this am that neither of them had a clue what Brexit would entail.

Rabbbbbb didn’t realise that Dover was a port, and Davies thinks that doing the Brexit deal is like buying a car or a house.

To a certain extend Davies is right…in that we have to do a deal to buy this particular house or we are homeless, but he doesn’t seem to realise that in those circumstances the vendor (EU) can dictate the price to us.

The Tory party seem to think that if they can agree a negotiation position between themselves then the EU27 will just nod it through…it would be funny were it not so sad.

No it’s obvious that Raab and Davis belong to an ideologically Federalist Party the same party which took the country into the EU.Both of who have now predictably sold out their supposed anti EU principles in favour of loyalty to remainer May.Unsurprisingly in the case of Raab dependent on a majority remain constituency vote while the supposed Con Leave vote is obviously happy to still vote Con.Regardless of it being a majority Remain Party as proven by every Con administration since Heath’s and the willingness of so called Brexiteer Con voters to put Party before principles in that regard.

As for the house yes we always knew that we need to move out of the EU high rise flat on the sinkhole estate and go back to a detached house in a nice area like the one that New Zealand for example still lives in.Which was Raab’s and Davis’ stated position.Until May obviously gave them the choice of keep their jobs and wages and get on board with her obvious plan of delay and sabotage with the aim of reversal of the Leave decision,or take their P45.

We should live in a house like New Zealand’s?
They do look comfortable don’t they. I’ll agree with that.

N.Z. And the UK have similar areas.
The UK currently has a population of 66millions. NZ has under 5millions.
Sigh! If only we could turn the clock back to the 1700’s when we had about 5m and start again from there.

Was it a coincidence that immigrants from Europe were coming in then? Changing our cities, claiming persecution, but really getting rich at our expense. Clearly what we are seeing today is merely the culmination of a long established plot. Welcoming the Europeans in the 1700’s was facilitated by the decendants of those who invaded our shores in 43. (No surprise we later had the Treaty of Rome). Our blood was diluted by these incomers or else we clearly would have been more successful at Hastings! We only lost that time because of the French members of Claudius’s army who stayed behind. No coincidence that palace was built at Fishbourne: clearly it’s near enough to the invasion side at Battle.

All very well shouting:
“Bloody Huguenots! Coming over here. Ruining our silk weaving trade!”
But the rot set in long before, as seems obvious!

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

Franglais:

Carryfast:

GasGas:
It’s obvious listening to Rabbbbbbb and Davies this am that neither of them had a clue what Brexit would entail.

Rabbbbbb didn’t realise that Dover was a port, and Davies thinks that doing the Brexit deal is like buying a car or a house.

To a certain extend Davies is right…in that we have to do a deal to buy this particular house or we are homeless, but he doesn’t seem to realise that in those circumstances the vendor (EU) can dictate the price to us.

The Tory party seem to think that if they can agree a negotiation position between themselves then the EU27 will just nod it through…it would be funny were it not so sad.

No it’s obvious that Raab and Davis belong to an ideologically Federalist Party the same party which took the country into the EU.Both of who have now predictably sold out their supposed anti EU principles in favour of loyalty to remainer May.Unsurprisingly in the case of Raab dependent on a majority remain constituency vote while the supposed Con Leave vote is obviously happy to still vote Con.Regardless of it being a majority Remain Party as proven by every Con administration since Heath’s and the willingness of so called Brexiteer Con voters to put Party before principles in that regard.

As for the house yes we always knew that we need to move out of the EU high rise flat on the sinkhole estate and go back to a detached house in a nice area like the one that New Zealand for example still lives in.Which was Raab’s and Davis’ stated position.Until May obviously gave them the choice of keep their jobs and wages and get on board with her obvious plan of delay and sabotage with the aim of reversal of the Leave decision,or take their P45.

We should live in a house like New Zealand’s?
They do look comfortable don’t they. I’ll agree with that.

N.Z. And the UK have similar areas.
The UK currently has a population of 66millions. NZ has under 5millions.
Sigh! If only we could turn the clock back to the 1700’s when we had about 5m and start again from there.

Was it a coincidence that immigrants from Europe were coming in then? Changing our cities, claiming persecution, but really getting rich at our expense. Clearly what we are seeing today is merely the culmination of a long established plot. Welcoming the Europeans in the 1700’s was facilitated by the decendants of those who invaded our shores in 43. (No surprise we later had the Treaty of Rome). Our blood was diluted by these incomers or else we clearly would have been more successful at Hastings! We only lost that time because of the French members of Claudius’s army who stayed behind. No coincidence that palace was built at Fishbourne: clearly it’s near enough to the invasion side at Battle.

All very well shouting:
“Bloody Huguenots! Coming over here. Ruining our silk weaving trade!”
But the rot set in long before, as seems obvious!

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

I fully understand your stance on Brexit as an expat, not saying it is true in your case but a lot of expats in Europe want the best of both worlds living somewhere nice but with the backstop of UK benefits, such as using the NHS and the UK’s education system, while looking at the UK through the opposite of rose tinted glasses. If you are living in France you are living in a country where at their last election over 30% of the population voted for a fascist party, fact of the matter is that in most European countries mainstream racism is far more prevalent than it is in the UK with far right parties getting high proportions of the vote while there is now no true right wing party in the UK although some parties may have right wing people in them. The UK is by no means free of racism, yet in the main it is streets ahead of most European countries

One of the ‘unexpected bonuses of Brexit’ is that we will only be “moderately less well off”

thetimes.co.uk/edition/comm … -5zbfsj2kx

I can’t tell you how excited I am at the prospect.

Oh, and the ‘latest rubbish’ from ‘project fear’…

independent.co.uk/news/busi … 20066.html

Only two factories…see…it could have been worse, they’ve still got a factory in Sheffield.

I can’t wait for my BLUE PASSPORT to arrive. It will more than make up for it, I’m sure. And that sentiment will be shared in Plymouth and Llanelli…who needs a job when you can stand on a street corner and wag a union jack?

And more rubbish here from some Remainer

bbc.co.uk/news/business-45860777

What could the boss of Ford possibly know about the motor industry?

Unlike that nice Mr Raaaaaaab, who is now an expert on international trade. Last week he found out that Great Britain is an island and Dover is a port. Who’da thunk it, eh?

Franglais:

Carryfast:
As for the house yes we always knew that we need to move out of the EU high rise flat on the sinkhole estate and go back to a detached house in a nice area like the one that New Zealand for example still lives in.Which was Raab’s and Davis’ stated position.Until May obviously gave them the choice of keep their jobs and wages and get on board with her obvious plan of delay and sabotage with the aim of reversal of the Leave decision,or take their P45.

We should live in a house like New Zealand’s?
They do look comfortable don’t they. I’ll agree with that.

N.Z. And the UK have similar areas.
The UK currently has a population of 66millions. NZ has under 5millions.
Sigh! If only we could turn the clock back to the 1700’s when we had about 5m and start again from there.

Was it a coincidence that immigrants from Europe were coming in then? Changing our cities, claiming persecution, but really getting rich at our expense. Clearly what we are seeing today is merely the culmination of a long established plot. Welcoming the Europeans in the 1700’s was facilitated by the decendants of those who invaded our shores in 43. (No surprise we later had the Treaty of Rome). Our blood was diluted by these incomers or else we clearly would have been more successful at Hastings! We only lost that time because of the French members of Claudius’s army who stayed behind. No coincidence that palace was built at Fishbourne: clearly it’s near enough to the invasion side at Battle.

All very well shouting:
“Bloody Huguenots! Coming over here. Ruining our silk weaving trade!”
But the rot set in long before, as seems obvious!

It’s obvious that I was comparing NZ’s status as an independent sovereign Nation State.In which case what difference does population levels make bearing in mind that NZ and UK both lived in ‘detached houses’ before 1973 with a similar massive difference in population.

Oh wait it’s clear that you’re talking about a Sudeten German scenario in which the immigrant communities go for self determination in this case on the basis of ‘EU citizens’,instead of 3rd Reich ones, taking over our country.

GasGas:
And more rubbish here from some Remainer

bbc.co.uk/news/business-45860777

What could the boss of Ford possibly know about the motor industry?

Unlike that nice Mr Raaaaaaab, who is now an expert on international trade. Last week he found out that Great Britain is an island and Dover is a port. Who’da thunk it, eh?

The boss of Ford says that Europe is good for Brit workers and Unite believes it.Who’da thunk it 50,000 workers employed reduced to 2,000 on the basis of supposed militant Brits while Ford Germany alone employs 28,800.Great idea for the bosses and foreign workers.

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fo … -80-789471

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Dage … 45_to_2000

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Germany

Those 2000 jobs will shortly go down…

Back in the day, the wise always sought-out German-made Fords in preference to the Dagenham Dustbins.

Ask any Ford dealer old enough to remember…there were always more warranty claims on UK-made Fords than German ones.

Not one of the car-makers active in the UK has said anything about Brexit other than its a bad idea. The component manufacturers take an even dimmer view of it.

GasGas:
Those 2000 jobs will shortly go down…

Back in the day, the wise always sought-out German-made Fords in preference to the Dagenham Dustbins.

Ask any Ford dealer old enough to remember…there were always more warranty claims on UK-made Fords than German ones.

Not one of the car-makers active in the UK has said anything about Brexit other than its a bad idea. The component manufacturers take an even dimmer view of it.

As I remember it ‘back in the day’ growing up around the motor trade no one with any sense would have wanted fwd junk like the Taunus in preference to Cortina/Zodiac/Capri/Classic even if they could have found one to buy.On that note exactly where and when was the Taunus ever sold together with UK Fords like Cortina Mk1 and 2 etc on the UK market at UK dealerships.

As for Dagenham dustbins yeah right.I’ll swap you this.

carandclassic.co.uk/car/c944769

For either of these.

classiccarsforsale.co.uk/ford/cortina/250058

classiccarsforsale.co.uk/ford/cortina/282753

Let’s get this right your sole case for the EU takeover of our country is that Brits aren’t bright enough to deserve to keep it.

Mazzer2:
I fully understand your stance on Brexit as an expat, not saying it is true in your case but a lot of expats in Europe want the best of both worlds living somewhere nice but with the backstop of UK benefits, such as using the NHS and the UK’s education system, while looking at the UK through the opposite of rose tinted glasses. If you are living in France you are living in a country where at their last election over 30% of the population voted for a fascist party, fact of the matter is that in most European countries mainstream racism is far more prevalent than it is in the UK with far right parties getting high proportions of the vote while there is now no true right wing party in the UK although some parties may have right wing people in them. The UK is by no means free of racism, yet in the main it is streets ahead of most European countries

Anyone who is fully paying into the UK tax and N.I. system should IMO get the benefits of the education and NHS and a vote in the future of the UK.
Anyone who no longer resides in the UK, and pays no due taxes or NHI contributions should no longer get those benefits or get a vote.

Yep, there seems to me, to be a rise in the “Alt Right”* and it is stronger in many Eu countries than in the UK. Clearly not all right wingers are fascist or racist. And Brexiteers are both of left and right leaning groups. And I also agree that the UK is probably less racist than many other countries I`ve been to, although I may not be particularly well placed to be a judge.

• Is that a PC / wishy washy / snowflake term for a fascist??

Franglais:
Anyone who is fully paying into the UK tax and N.I. system should IMO get the benefits of the education and NHS and a vote in the future of the UK.
Anyone who no longer resides in the UK, and pays no due taxes or NHI contributions should no longer get those benefits or get a vote.

So we’re a net contributor to the EU budget by your logic that means only those countries should get to vote in the EU parliament.While you’ve not answered the the question as to whether the Sudeten Germans had more right to ‘vote’ Czechoslovakia into the 3rd Reich than ex pat free Czechs,many of who didn’t return to the country,had to liberate it by force by fighting for the Allies.

As for ‘the vote’ no one has the right to vote a country out of existence whether domestic or foreign and anyone has the right to vote if they apply for Brit citizenship which unlike Canada and NZ is very easy to do.Which makes your whole argument moot.

Most of the surviving Ford Escorts in the UK are the ones built in Saarlouis, West Germany.

The British ones are mostly gone.

My Focus is an excellent car, for what it is. It was built in Saarlois, too. My status-obsessed neighbour was going on about his ‘German’ BMW. I had to point out my car was German, and his was South African!

fwd junk like the Taunus

Yes, the front-wheel drive nonsense will never catch on.

Stick with leaf springs and a beam back axle with a diff.

GasGas:
fwd junk like the Taunus

Yes, the front-wheel drive nonsense will never catch on.

Stick with leaf springs and a beam back axle with a diff.

As we know BMW and Mercedes were crippled by their adherence to rwd and the fortunes of Ford and GM Europe took off after the introduction of Mondeo and Vectra etc.Oh wait.While wasn’t the Zodiac Mk4 and the Mk1 Granada both Essex made products with BMW type semi trailing IRS which were a match for the BMW E3 at the price.