NHS, don't ever complain.

[The-Snowman]

You're waffling and diverting (as always)

About 4% of your overall tax contribution goes to healthcare.
You dont "pay" for healthcare already.
Even at that, if the nhs was dissolved tomorrow, no way your tax would come down. Instead, you'd have insurance premiums on top of it.

Pat has to keep working or they will stop his cover and he will get NOTHING towards his healthcare.
Remind me again why that's BS? Why is his legitimate worries for paying for his and his wife's healthcare whining, moaning and BS but your "the whole system is rotten to the core because ive had a bad experience" is perfectly ok?

US laws also prevent such 'difficult' cases being denied cover bearing in mind I've already posted a link to those laws and Union arranged health cover including in retirement.

Yes because we all know that laws are never broken or bent by large corporations and governments. They always follow the laws eh

And yes, you should be grateful. If you need a doctor or to go to hospital, its there for you. No one will leave you dying why they check your insurance card. No one will do a wallet biopsy. No one will refuse to send an ambulance because you owe them money already. No one will turn you away because you dont have a credit card they can charge.
As I said, no one is forcing you to use the NHS. If you're not happy with it, don't use it. Go private.
Oh that's right, you can't afford it and you're hiding behind the bs "can't afford to pay twice" excuse

Maybe the German system would be better. Maybe it would. Who knows? I havent researched it because its never going to happen here, and even if it did it wouldn't be run as efficiently as the Germans manage it. We have what we have. You dont like it? Fine. But stop using it and bitching about it if youre not going to go source your healthcare that you find acceptable.

You call me selfish just because it "worked for me"? I call it grateful.
Have you ever considered that if (and its a big if) your experience was so bad that maybe youre the exception rather than the rule?

[Carryfast]

Have you ever considered that if (and its a big if) your experience was so bad that maybe youre the exception rather than the rule?

So now you want to reduce the issues to one of exceptions proving rules.Tell that to Freya Wells' mother.Or Kamalaloginidvi Pararajasingham's family. You know just another day in an over worked under staffed under funded NHS hospital.But who cares about the losers when your experience went so well and you're so happy with it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rules.html

http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/14435 ... -hospital/

[The-Snowman]

.

[The-Snowman]

Conveniently ignoring all the other flaws in your logic youve been spouting (as always)

About 4% of your overall tax contribution goes to healthcare.
You dont "pay" for healthcare already.

What were you saying about "not being able to afford healthcare twice" as your reason for not using private? You seem to have forgotten to answer it

Incidentally, what was your answer to the question of how you would cope without the NHS and being forced to rely on insurance to pay for your healthcare? What was your answer to how you thought that would play out?

Pat has to keep working or they will stop his cover and he will get NOTHING towards his healthcare.
Remind me again why that's BS? Why is his legitimate worries for paying for his and his wife's healthcare whining, moaning and BS but your "the whole system is rotten to the core because ive had a bad experience" is perfectly ok?

Any closer to an answer?

u want to reduce the issues to one of exceptions proving rules.Tell that to Freya Wells' mother.Or Kamalaloginidvi Pararajasingham's family. You know just another day in an over worked under staffed under funded NHS hospital.But who cares about the losers when your experience went so well and you're so happy with it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rules.html

http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/14435 ... -hospital/

Well those two examples arent even REMOTELY close to the "kill them off" BS youve been spouting. They seem like either tragic errors or no properly trained staff being available NOT the bs youre pedalling. If youre going to try to use media stories (especially the daily mail) to prove your point, at least make sure its relevant. Even staying consistant about what youre moaning about rather than constantly moving the goalposts and changing the subject would be a start
Ive never claimed the staff arent over worked and the nhs under funded but theres a world of difference from that to the mince youre spouting about them being out to kill you off
There will ALWAYS be exceptions. That, unfortunatly, is life. How many times a day, week, month or year are people saved when they would otherwise have been left to die because they had no money to pay? Thousands if not millions. Now compare that to the cases like your two examples. What % of good cases vs bad do you think there are? Extremelly low would be my guess. No case is ever "acceptable" but errors and mistakes happen. That, unfortunately, is a fact of life and not proof of a conspiracy.

Try again

Therefor, yes my experience went well and im happy with it. Why wouldnt I be?
Ive never said its perfect. Ive never claimed everything always works perfectly. What I HAVE said though, is that its there for you no matter how little money you have and no one will want a credit card or insurance document first.
No one is forced to use the nhs. There is private healthcare if you want (and you dont pay for healthcare already, despite what you want to believe) so if you keep using it, stop [zb] moaning. Its obviously not as bad as you are making out

[Carryfast]

Conveniently ignoring all the other flaws in your logic youve been spouting (as always)

About 4% of your overall tax contribution goes to healthcare.
You dont "pay" for healthcare already.

What were you saying about "not being able to afford healthcare twice" as your reason for not using private? You seem to have forgotten to answer it

Incidentally, what was your answer to the question of how you would cope without the NHS and being forced to rely on insurance to pay for your healthcare? What was your answer to how you thought that would play out?

Pat has to keep working or they will stop his cover and he will get NOTHING towards his healthcare.
Remind me again why that's BS? Why is his legitimate worries for paying for his and his wife's healthcare whining, moaning and BS but your "the whole system is rotten to the core because ive had a bad experience" is perfectly ok?

Any closer to an answer?

u want to reduce the issues to one of exceptions proving rules.Tell that to Freya Wells' mother.Or Kamalaloginidvi Pararajasingham's family. You know just another day in an over worked under staffed under funded NHS hospital.But who cares about the losers when your experience went so well and you're so happy with it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rules.html

http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/14435 ... -hospital/

Well those two examples arent even REMOTELY close to the "kill them off" BS youve been spouting. They seem like either tragic errors or no properly trained staff being available NOT the bs youre pedalling. If youre going to try to use media stories (especially the daily mail) to prove your point, at least make sure its relevant. Even staying consistant about what youre moaning about rather than constantly moving the goalposts and changing the subject would be a start
Ive never claimed the staff arent over worked and the nhs under funded but theres a world of difference from that to the mince youre spouting about them being out to kill you off
There will ALWAYS be exceptions. That, unfortunatly, is life. How many times a day, week, month or year are people saved when they would otherwise have been left to die because they had no money to pay? Thousands if not millions. Now compare that to the cases like your two examples. What % of good cases vs bad do you think there are? Extremelly low would be my guess. No case is ever "acceptable" but errors and mistakes happen. That, unfortunately, is a fact of life and not proof of a conspiracy.

Try again

Therefor, yes my experience went well and im happy with it. Why wouldnt I be?
Ive never said its perfect. Ive never claimed everything always works perfectly. What I HAVE said though, is that its there for you no matter how little money you have and no one will want a credit card or insurance document first.
No one is forced to use the nhs. There is private healthcare if you want (and you dont pay for healthcare already, despite what you want to believe) so if you keep using it, stop [zb] moaning. Its obviously not as bad as you are making out

What's the difference between paying tax to fund healthcare costs v paying insurance contributions.While having to pay tax to fund the NHS while then paying insurance contributions to fund private health care obviously means paying twice.Feel free to show the calculations for your 4% of tax revenue claim.Bearing in mind that road fuel taxation forms a large part of NHS funding which varies from some paying a lot more than others over a year and which even if it was correct just proves how under funded the NHS is.On that note as I said the US and especially German systems are more realistically funded with a direct link between earnings and payments.

As for the two examples they were meant to show the results of our under funded over loaded rationed health care system.All that so that employers can duck their responsibilities in terms of paying sufficient wages and corporate taxes to fund a decent health care system.

As for euthanasia of the elderly that was actually contained within the example of the Liverpool Pathways controversy for just one example ironically in a BBC report not DM.Remind us what happened to that.Don't bother because I already know and it's now just changed its name/s to so called Fast Track among others.In addition to the US reports of the real agenda behind Hospice and examples to prove it which touched a nerve and rang an alarm bell regarding my Father's demise at the hands of that seemingly satanic regime,after a ridiculously late diagnosis of lung cancer after months in hospital had allowed it to spread throughout his body.Which is why I had my doubts about the way in which my Dad left this world and why my mother is now losing the last fight for her life either because of the brain damage caused by the hard drugs needlessly inflicted on her by the murderous Hospice regime which the hospital forced on her on discharge ( most likely ).Or because of her Myeloma issues being allowed to run rampant,to the point of invading her brain,which seems an extremely unlikely scenario like 1% of cases,owing to the resulting palliative categorisation taking her out of the outpatients cancer follow up and check up and further treatment regime.All that after them failing to kill her owing to a similar approach to an obvious Sepsis/Septic Shock case as that which killed Freya Wells.IE with holding of ICU provision at least,after a long wait in triage for any so called emergency attention for her illness at all.In which ironically putting a DNR on her obviously seemed to be more of a priority at that point than saving her life and doing whatever it took to prevent damage to organs like the heart with access to ICU being essential in that.

So no forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for Pat's moaning and rose tinted view of the NHS.Bearing in mind that I've shown the rules which stop US retirees and difficult cases etc being taken out of the health insurance cover system over there.Let alone your arrogant selfish I'm all right Jack position.On the subject of our rationed,to the point of being a dangerously unfit for purpose,lottery for the wrong patient at the wrong time in the wrong place,so called NHS.

So no I'm not grateful in that I feel the treatment of both my Mother and Father at its hands when they needed it most has removed any faith I had in it.Hopefully at least my telling them to shove their bowel screening programme will help to alleviate some of your unwarranted indignation in my regard.Preferring to die a quick natural death.Than,if they find something,go through loads of chemo and the damage that does to the immune and cardio vascular systems etc.All to eventually end up forced into the Palliative 'Care' regime to be put down like a dog at the hands of a morphine and sedative wielding Hospice Einzatz enforcer.

[The-Snowman]

blah blah blah

Youre basically just repeating the same BS and ignoring anything you dont like and answering questions that wernt asked. As always
Although I do find it somewhat amusing that you think "laws in place" would prevent the big conspiracy you think is rampant in the nhs regarding "kill them off".

Incidentlly, last I checked New York was in the US. Remind me of why Pat, in the US, is "moaning" when he and his wife are in the healthcare system you say is better than ours?

Health insurance is compulsory in Germany. They also pay tax. Remind me again how insurance companies wont and dont try to dodge paying out by using loopholes in the contracts?

Also, how many Americans and Germans do you actually know? Not people youve never met who you only speak to online but ACTUAL people with ACTUAL experience of these (possibly) superior systems whos opinion you could trust? I know around a dozen in America and none of them see their healthcare system as far better than ours. So how many actual real life opinions are you basing your rose tinted view on?

As for the two examples they were meant to show the results of our under funded over loaded rationed health care system

So not actually relevant to the "kill them off because its not worth paying for treatment" agenda you claim or actual evidence of what youre pedalling? Youve decided to try to change the subject to something else? What a surprise

Let alone your arrogant selfish I'm all right Jack position.

What % of good cases vs bad do you think there are? Extremelly low would be my guess.

Have you ever considered that if (and its a big if) your experience was so bad that maybe youre the exception rather than the rule?

Hopefully at least my telling them to shove their bowel screening programme will help to alleviate some of your unwarranted indignation in my regard.

Nope, because this all started because you didnt like the fact that I said the nhs was there for people who wouldnt be able to afford healthcare otherwise, or would be turned away because they didnt have good enough insurance. its YOU who twisted it and then changed the goalposts so many times its not about that anymore (as you always do) so you refusing a bowel screening doesnt actually change anything, despite what you want to believe

As ive said to you umpteen times before, which you seem to be having trouble reading and understanding, ive ever claimed the nhs was perfect. What ive said is its there for everyone, regardless of how much money you have or how good your insurance is. Maybe if you lost the chip on your shoulder you'd be able to see ive never disagreed the nhs isnt underfunded, nor have I claimed its perfect. Its you who keeps trying to make it about that

Btw, youve retired. How much are you paying in tax each month?

[Carryfast]

blah blah blah

Youre basically just repeating the same BS and ignoring anything you dont like and answering questions that wernt asked. As always
Although I do find it somewhat amusing that you think "laws in place" would prevent the big conspiracy you think is rampant in the nhs regarding "kill them off".

Incidentlly, last I checked New York was in the US. Remind me of why Pat, in the US, is "moaning" when he and his wife are in the healthcare system you say is better than ours?

Health insurance is compulsory in Germany. They also pay tax. Remind me again how insurance companies wont and dont try to dodge paying out by using loopholes in the contracts?

Also, how many Americans and Germans do you actually know? Not people youve never met who you only speak to online but ACTUAL people with ACTUAL experience of these (possibly) superior systems whos opinion you could trust? I know around a dozen in America and none of them see their healthcare system as far better than ours. So how many actual real life opinions are you basing your rose tinted view on?

As for the two examples they were meant to show the results of our under funded over loaded rationed health care system

So not actually relevant to the "kill them off because its not worth paying for treatment" agenda you claim or actual evidence of what youre pedalling? Youve decided to try to change the subject to something else? What a surprise

Let alone your arrogant selfish I'm all right Jack position.

What % of good cases vs bad do you think there are? Extremelly low would be my guess.

Have you ever considered that if (and its a big if) your experience was so bad that maybe youre the exception rather than the rule?

Hopefully at least my telling them to shove their bowel screening programme will help to alleviate some of your unwarranted indignation in my regard.

Nope, because this all started because you didnt like the fact that I said the nhs was there for people who wouldnt be able to afford healthcare otherwise, or would be turned away because they didnt have good enough insurance. its YOU who twisted it and then changed the goalposts so many times its not about that anymore (as you always do) so you refusing a bowel screening doesnt actually change anything, despite what you want to believe

As ive said to you umpteen times before, which you seem to be having trouble reading and understanding, ive ever claimed the nhs was perfect. What ive said is its there for everyone, regardless of how much money you have or how good your insurance is. Maybe if you lost the chip on your shoulder you'd be able to see ive never disagreed the nhs isnt underfunded, nor have I claimed its perfect. Its you who keeps trying to make it about that

Btw, youve retired. How much are you paying in tax each month?

I've clearly made the case that the main issue with the NHS is under funding.Of which examples like those I posted and the equally clear abuse of the intentions of the DNR and Liverpool Pathways type provisions.Particularly in regard to vulnerable elderly patients with expensive difficult to treat illnesses being a symptom of the resulting rationing within the NHS and conflict of interest in the provider also being the fund controller in this case to the obvious disadvantage of the patient and advantage of employers.

As for the law yes the big question is why aren't the law investigating the use of hard controlled drugs by the Hospice regime and the justification for and the often all too predictable results of such use.Among other questionable practices within the so called 'palliative care' regime and even the justification for that regime being inflicted on many patients.Maybe a case of watch this space who knows.

So you've never claimed the NHS is perfect and you acknowledge that it is under funded.Which makes the case for Pat's comments how ?.

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/views/blogs ... 73.article

No we need to talk about how we increase funding levels to those needed.Which obviously means wages.

As for my tax status ironically forced to retire on health grounds.Although having contributed single person's income tax from starting work at 16 and plenty of VAT on my consumer spending and fuel taxes thereby also keeping the economy moving.Remind me how much tax a married couple contributes including mortgage tax relief and possibly working tax credits and mimimal car fuel usage v their demands of two people plus possibly their offspring on the NHS.

[The-Snowman]

Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah.

I'm not repeating myself anymore.

[Carryfast]

Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah.

I'm not repeating myself anymore.

As I said be careful what you wish for.Assisted dying yeah right.Tell it like it is imposed euthanasia along the lines of Liverpool Pathways supported by heartless hypocrite quacks as part of the NHS rationing agenda.Feel free to come home Pat.To enjoy the free no cost benefits of the 'palliative care' regime.Including the free ' benefits ' of drugs like Lorozzapam and Fentanyl,which suicidal junkies pay good money for and with no need to even ask for it let alone want it.All that after fighting your way through a programme of debilitating chemo treatment first which you'd hoped was all about prolonging your life not being handed over to the Hospice regime to induce your death..

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bitte ... -vlj38b63w

[switchlogic]

Was back in hospital this week. Bypassed GP and went straight to A&E. Seen within 20 minutes, by next day I'd had various top ups and 3 units of blood, an endoscopy and three decent meals. Again.......I adore the NHS. A stress free experience from beginning to end with AMAZING staff. I'd be the first to take to the streets of ever it was threatened as I I'm sure millions of others would

[The-Snowman]

The same rehashed guff and answers to questions he wasnt actually asked

I'm not repeating myself anymore

[milesahead]

I don't even know what to say Pat, your situation is not nice situation to be at, shows just how often we don't appreciate what we have, for example health and healthcare services. Don't give up, hope you and your wife get better.

[grumpyken52]

All those that talk of having the option of going private and having the NHS tax opt out don't have a clue .
The vast majority of staff in private healthcare were trained by the NHS .
In an accident or emergency how are you going to arrange your initial treatment or transportation?
I don't know of any private ambulance services that come anywhere near the standards of NHS units .
I know some rescue units from motorsports that are excellent at what they do but the vast majority of their staff are NHS employees doing the work on a voluntary basis. Armed forces medical services are excellent but are more and more entwined with the NHS and many of the front line medics are NHS staff in the Territorial Army or forces auxiliary services on deployment.
If private medical services were truly independent of the the NHS the cost of training and research would certainly push the cost out of the reach of all but the very wealthy then add in all the parts of the service that is not viable as a profit maker .


Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

[Carryfast]

All those that talk of having the option of going private and having the NHS tax opt out don't have a clue .
The vast majority of staff in private healthcare were trained by the NHS .
In an accident or emergency how are you going to arrange your initial treatment or transportation?
I don't know of any private ambulance services that come anywhere near the standards of NHS units .
I know some rescue units from motorsports that are excellent at what they do but the vast majority of their staff are NHS employees doing the work on a voluntary basis. Armed forces medical services are excellent but are more and more entwined with the NHS and many of the front line medics are NHS staff in the Territorial Army or forces auxiliary services on deployment.
If private medical services were truly independent of the the NHS the cost of training and research would certainly push the cost out of the reach of all but the very wealthy then add in all the parts of the service that is not viable as a profit maker .

It's got nothing to do with 'private' v NHS.

The fact is it doesn't matter whether you call it a taxation funded NHS or a US type 'private' insurance funded system.The actual costs of health care staff salaries and treatment all stay the same.The problem with the NHS being the contradiction that it's raison d'etre is to supposedly solve the issue of incomes being insufficient to cover those costs.Not to mention the conflict of interest in the government acting as both the go between and advocate for the consumer and the employers who ultimately have to pay for it all in the form of wages needed to pay the taxes needed to fund it all.The result being catastrophic rationing which you won't realise until you get caught in the trap of being the wrong patient with the wrong illness/es in the wrong health care rationing situation.

Which,among other types of health care rationing,ironically in this case could mean someone like Pat being categorised as palliative and no longer worthy of treatment,with all that implies at the Hospice stage ( effectively the hidden involuntary euthanasia,of vulnerable expensive to treat patients,to save the NHS cash,to make the employers who ultimately pay for it all in either case richer ).As shown by the Liverpool Pathways scandal and which still exists in all but name.Not to mention a health care post code lottery and hospital environment which often has more resemblance to 1960's Soviet Union than 21st Century Australian type expectations,with resulting casualty figures and exodus of NHS trained staff to prove it.

http://www.channel4.com/news/nhs-hospit ... tudy-finds

Make no mistake it's all about how much funding goes into the system to pay for it and the ethics it works under.The idea of rationing in any form,let alone giving up on anyone and convincing them to give up on their own lives in the form palliative,as opposed to fight to the end even when further treatment seems hopeless,as part of that rationing,certainly not fitting the definition of ethical more like bleedin statanic.

Not anything to do with what name we give to the system or whether it's taxation or insurance based as shown by the hybrid taxation/insurance based German type system.

[The-Snowman]

Great.
Who pulled his string again?